View Full Version : Affirmative Action
Ashlyn
08-02-2005, 11:32 PM
Definition: Measures taken to correct the effects of past discrimination in hiring and promotion, colleges, etc.
The Gist: Minorities get preference over the typical white class in things such as college admittance.
I'm rather against this... I think it works just as much against a minority as anything. How is this equality? :drunk:
Your opinions?
hypergirl475
08-02-2005, 11:48 PM
I don't like it. I don't think race should factor into college acceptances at all.
amberdawn
08-02-2005, 11:51 PM
^^ I agree. Its horrible
~Roger¤Davies~
08-03-2005, 12:04 AM
Well if they are an international Student then they are making the college look good. and giving classes to people who are coloured... or of a different race or herritage also makes the school look better then having a bunch of Locals from the area.
Thats my view on it...
You need the truth then on Affirmative Action, it's not someting that necessarily affects "international students." It's not like that. I'll give you an example of how it works. A black student would need lower scores on tests or grades in general to get into a university.
Ashlyn
08-03-2005, 12:31 AM
... and I don't understand why the college would rather look good in the number of minorities they have vs. the quality of students.
Why would somebody WANT to get in that way?
freakygirl
08-03-2005, 12:32 AM
Ashlyn, it's either get in that way or no education at all after high school. You can say that they're pot smoking lazy bums who don't deserve to go to college but some of them actually try. They come from poverty where as soon as they become of age, they gotta get a job and start supporting their families. They don't have the means to attend a good high school (where the real estate is really expensive) and get the $1000 Princeton Review SAT tutoring. They can barely afford the SAT testing fee itself.
The way I see it, if they don't get a chance to go to college, history is just going to repeat itself and their kids are going to grow up without a future too.
If Alumnis can pull some strings or donate a whole wing of school to get their kid in, why can't black students get help to go to college? At least they'll work hard in college because they truly want to go unlike the rich white kids who blew off their trust funds as soon as they turned 18. I saw, if you want affermative action gone, take away the bribing and the connections that the rich white parents have first.
Ol'blueyes
08-03-2005, 12:47 AM
I don't think that's necessarily true. Universities should determine if you should be accepted based on a student's performance throughout highschool, rather than a race. I think what Ashlyn is saying is that it is unfair for a minority to have a better chance in getting accepted to a prestigious school or any school for that matter rather than someone else. It should be equal and balanced. An example would be a white individual having an SAT score of 1400 and an african american having a score of 1300 and the african american student receiving an acception. If you want to stop racism then you better start in the application process of getting into college because no other practice could exemplify the characteristics between one who is a minority and one who isn't, better.
I think those who need support, for financial or social reasons, should be suppported.
And the race, colour or religion shouldn't matter the least.
chichen02
08-03-2005, 04:02 PM
i honestly don't think it's right to give minorities more chances to get into colleges than caucasians, etc, i think this is racism in itself agains those that are white, but people don't always view it as racism because they think it's not possible to be racist agains those that are white. i think whoever deserves it the most to get into the college should get into the college and i don't think race should have anything to do with it.
Ashlyn
08-03-2005, 10:34 PM
If Alumnis can pull some strings or donate a whole wing of school to get their kid in, why can't black students get help to go to college? At least they'll work hard in college because they truly want to go unlike the rich white kids who blew off their trust funds as soon as they turned 18. I saw, if you want affermative action gone, take away the bribing and the connections that the rich white parents have first.
True, but how often is that the case? Often it's middle-class kids, or even poor white kids who get screwed over by affirmative action. Poverty isn't race-limited. There are white kids who have to scramble like hell to pay the same things, but they don't get the hand up. It's not fair. We have need-based scholorships. It seems fairer to help out that way.
Case in point: theres a cambodian student that graduated from my high school a few years ago. His parents own their own business, they are... wealthy, especially for our town. He got a full-ride scholarship, though is grades were average or slightly below, simply based on the color of his skin.
Race still matters. We're still being seperated by it, and in that, we are far from equal.
freakygirl
08-03-2005, 10:37 PM
The Alumi thing affects a lot of people in a different way. Look at George Bush, I doubt he got into yale due to his C-average scores. Without his daddy's help, he wouldn't be the president today. And because he's president, he range of influence is huge.
I agree with Kari though, maybe it should be based on social classes
FaithGirl16
08-04-2005, 12:09 PM
I think those who need support, for financial or social reasons, should be suppported.
And the race, colour or religion shouldn't matter the least.
I definitely agree with this. If they need money support, then they should have more help. But it shouldn't be a race/religion/gender/culture factor.
Heather
08-04-2005, 01:40 PM
Annie,
Bush has better grades at Yale than John Kerry did. So that old excuse just doesnt hold. Hes not dumb, he's just not a good public speaker. The two are not hand in hand.
And affirmative action in college isnt the only problem. Its even worse in the workforce. Where if you are white, and more than qualified for a job, you will lose that job to a minority that is not as qualified as you are, simply because of quotas.
Ashlyn
08-04-2005, 06:01 PM
Annie,
Bush has better grades at Yale than John Kerry did. So that old excuse just doesnt hold. Hes not dumb, he's just not a good public speaker. The two are not hand in hand.
And affirmative action in college isnt the only problem. Its even worse in the workforce. Where if you are white, and more than qualified for a job, you will lose that job to a minority that is not as qualified as you are, simply because of quotas.
I don't understand how that can be seen as anything OTHER than racism.
Heather
08-04-2005, 06:35 PM
Neither do I. Its reverse discrimination, pure and simple.
Ashlyn
08-04-2005, 06:37 PM
If what we really want in this country is equality, then we should get rid of affirmative action.
freakygirl
08-04-2005, 09:36 PM
If you take it away, what's your idea of not letting the black people continue to be in the lower end?
And Heather, I wasn't talking about his grades AT yale, i was talking about BEFORE. Your grades at yale doesnt get you into college, it's the high school GPA and SAT. And in his case, his dad also.
Andrew
08-04-2005, 10:14 PM
*cough*nepotism*cough*
Ashlyn
08-06-2005, 08:16 PM
If you take it away, what's your idea of not letting the black people continue to be in the lower end?
And Heather, I wasn't talking about his grades AT yale, i was talking about BEFORE. Your grades at yale doesnt get you into college, it's the high school GPA and SAT. And in his case, his dad also.
I think we should improve public education for all of the poor classes, not just give a hand up to people based on race. There are white people just as poor. The color of your skin shouldn't be an element in education whatsoever.
kbear49
08-07-2005, 12:51 AM
When my parents went to college there had to be so many black people enrolled in the college. Many of them had full ride scholarships because they needed more of their race to even out enrollment. I guess the white students got mad because many of the black students didnt do anything to earn their degrees. It spirted a whole protest.
Heather
08-09-2005, 04:47 AM
^^ Exactly!!!!
Affirmative action needs to be repealed. LBJ and his "Great Society" was nothing but detrimental to America. What we need, is to get rid of that "race" section of applications, so that people are judged solely on their qualifications. And honestly, if you live anywhere outside the Deep South, no one gives a fig about your race. They care about your qualifications. I cant count the number of times Ive lost out on jobs because Im "white". You're so worried about blacks, Annie? Well, what about us white folk who have bills to pay, and cant get a job because we're not a minority? No one cares about us.
eta
I am also getting pretty sick and tired of people bashing Bush because he is a member of a dynasty. Are you willing to say the same thing about JFK, or any of the Kennedys? Well, if not than you need to stop bashing Bush about that right now. He is no different than them. The only difference being that he is a "republican" and the Kennedys are not.
Oh, and btw...if JFK were alive today, he WOULDNT be a democrat. Actually, he would probably be beating the crap out of Teddy for everything hes trying to pull in the Senate.
Heather said it very well. It's unfair to certain groups now because they aren't a minority. In reality there should be nothing as a minority when it comes to race. We're all Americans (those of us living in the USA that is.) That should be who we are.
Quinton
12-06-2005, 02:36 PM
A little late I know but...
People have said that white people miss out on jobs in which black people would otherwise get. Correct, but in the grand scheme of things compare the ratio of unemployed black people to employed white people. Something like 1:112 so even if every black unemployed were to displace a white worker it would only affect something like 1% of the white employment demographic. However... remember this applies only to job-qualified applicants (actual qualifications are debatable), it really only pertains to less than 1% of the demographic.
One further point... the main sources of job-loss affecting white workers has to do with factory relocations and labour contracting outside the US, computerization and automation, and corporate downsizing.
As far as claiming reverse discrimination, a good analogy I read somewhere was this: The logic of affirmative action is no different than the logic of treating a nutritional deficiency with vitamin supplements. For a healthy person, high doses of vitamin supplements may be unnecessary or even harmful, but for a person whose system is out of balance, supplements are an efficient way to restore the body's balance.
The problem with reverse discrimination is that it uses the same word: "discrimination" to describe two very different things. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action is an effort to overcome prejudicial treatment through inclusion. The most effective way to cure society of exclusionary practices is to make special efforts at inclusion, which is exactly what affirmative action does.
The fact is that minorities are disavantaged and will continue to be for some time to come. Anything that helps address that and level the playing field is something for the better.
A quote by Martin Luther King jr, that I personally found very interesting...
"Whenever this issue is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."
Andrea
12-06-2005, 04:15 PM
That was a highly relevant and timely quote... fifty years ago.
Ashlyn, it's either get in that way or no education at all after high school. You can say that they're pot smoking lazy bums who don't deserve to go to college but some of them actually try. They come from poverty where as soon as they become of age, they gotta get a job and start supporting their families. They don't have the means to attend a good high school (where the real estate is really expensive) and get the $1000 Princeton Review SAT tutoring. They can barely afford the SAT testing fee itself.The problem with this line of reasoning is, of course, that it excludes the existence of generationally poor whites, of which there are MANY, especially in the South.
As a low-income Latina myself, I don't want to get any special privileges just for being Latina and low-income. I think this would put me in a divide with my colleagues who got in just on the merits of their work and general deservedness. I want to be able to know that whatever I have, I got it JUST on the merits of my work and deservedness too, not because I was afforded a special consideration that had nothing to do with my efforts.
Quinton
12-06-2005, 04:51 PM
As a low-income Latina myself, I don't want to get any special privileges just for being Latina and low-income. I think this would put me in a divide with my colleagues who got in just on the merits of their work and general deservedness. I want to be able to know that whatever I have, I got it JUST on the merits of my work and deservedness too, not because I was afforded a special consideration that had nothing to do with my efforts.That's cool. And it's good that you don't have nor want special privileges. :)
Heather
12-06-2005, 07:36 PM
Ive always been against Affirmative Action. Its reverse discrimination plain and simple. And if you think its bad in college, wait until you enter the workforce, its even worse there.
Fading Shadow
12-06-2005, 07:42 PM
I don't think it's fair I think your race doesn't matter I mean we're all people we should all have equal rights and there shouldn't be racism.I am against Affirmative Action and always will be.
Quinton
12-06-2005, 08:13 PM
Once the socio-economic gap has been removed, Affirmative Action will dissipate. Then the world will know glory like it never has before :)
christy86
12-07-2005, 02:16 AM
And honestly, if you live anywhere outside the Deep South, no one gives a fig about your race. They care about your qualifications. I cant count the number of times Ive lost out on jobs because Im "white". You're so worried about blacks, Annie? Well, what about us white folk who have bills to pay, and cant get a job because we're not a minority? No one cares about us.
I agree with Heather. It is just reverse. By the way what the heck? Why does somebody need 1000$ SAT prep? I never even heard of that, and i'm a white person. :lol: One of my friends is a mixed up mutt(spanish,asian,black mixed) she's poor no doubt. But she studied on her own and got good grades and took the SAT. Now she is in college.
I read last yr in the paper. Texas A&M University "actually" wouldn't want to accept White people because they need more blacks. A Black guy with a 600SAT score got in over a white person with a 1400SAT. That is outright unlawful.
Hey i'm a southern...they always care about race.
It needs to be EQUAL!!!
Andrea
12-07-2005, 07:38 AM
There are many many more poor whites than there are poor blacks. Affirmative action originally was intended to include poor whites, but it was determined that even poor whites enjoyed "white privilege" or something crazy like that. I would say it's fairly obvious today that whatever "white privilege" impoverished southern whites enjoy is negligible relative to the degree of their disenfranchisement.
Government-enforced equality is problematic on so many levels. It infantilicizes the governed populace, assuming that it's a given that we cannot work out our differences and come to greater understandings without the government twisting our arms and imposing fines and penalties and such. It fosters resentment and suspicion and delegitimizes any real accomplishments minorities may *actually* have acheived, because everyone then just assumes that they only got there because they're _________.
Affirmative action = failed American social experiment #2395723.
Quinton
12-07-2005, 11:27 AM
Government-enforced anything is problematic on so many levels :-/
That was a highly relevant and timely quote... fifty years ago.I didn't mean to say anything else. It just shows the necessarity of Affirmative Action in the beginning. If one day a country doesn't admit black people to eat in the same room of a restaurant as white people, you can't expect that black people will at once have the same chances in jobs and schools. I mean, sure, this might have turned out in a way that is no longer justified, but I see nothing wrong in posting this quote still.
*gwen*~*grover*
12-20-2005, 11:13 AM
haha.
about the quote that Kari posted, in some ways i think it is still relevant. now, we're all reasonable people here and i dont think that anyone thinks anything should be judged on race, sex, etc. but there are still people who do, people who think that they dont deserve the same rights, but also people who fanatically say that taking away these privledges is segregation, were not allowing them to catch up in that kind of race. i agree, i think that racism is partially being kept alive through ideals like this and i think the world would be better without them, but i dont think that its really possible to do so (at this time anyway)
***
oh yeah, and i meant to say that $1000 for SAT prep is in no way unheard of, and in alot of cases, very low. i think thats crazy, but most tutors charge around $200-300 per session so.....
Andrea
12-20-2005, 01:49 PM
Crazily, I improved my SAT score by 170 points just by perusing a $14.95 SAT prep book. =)
Businesses shouldn't be forced to not discriminate by the government. A stringently racist or discriminatory won't get too many applicants in this day and age anyway, and there's nothing from stopping non-discriminatory people from going into business and spreading the virtues of their hiring practices.
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