blood for oil blood for oil blood for oil!!!

[Noah]

Well, ok, I'm not making accusations, or saying anything, or pointing any fingers at any former Texas oil tycoons about a "questionable" middle eastern conflict. I mean, it just sounds so fishy... with tax breaks to certain oil companies, rising prices, and record earnings. I'm not trying to advance any theories here, but it sounds fishy... I dunno.

When major oil companies report their quarterly profits next week, they're once again expected to post record numbers. With crude trading around $60 a barrel, the oil industry is enjoying one of the biggest windfalls in its history. But as the industry looks for places to put that cash, it's finding it harder and harder to put funds to work finding new deposits of oil and natural gas.

By just about any measure, the past three years have produced one of the biggest cash gushers in the oil industry’s history. Since January of 2002, the price of crude has tripled, leaving oil producers awash in profits. During that period, the top 10 major public oil companies have sold some $1.5 trillion worth of crude, pocketing profits of more than $125 billion.

“This is the mother of all booms,” said Oppenheimer & Co. oil analyst Fadel Gheit. “They have so much profit, it’s almost an embarrassment of riches. They don’t know what to do with it.

"I don't know what the next stop is going to be - it's like a perfect storm," Gheit said, pointing to the confluence of factors including strong demand, tight supplies, increased global tension, hot weather, refinery glitches and excessive speculation.

ExxonMobil, the world's largest publicly traded oil company, said Thursday its profits surged 32% in the second quarter as it reaped the benefits of soaring oil and natural gas prices.

So, oil companies are reaping HUGE benefits right now with the soaring gas prices and "global tension". It just seems weird to me, that's all. I guess if people will pay these kinds of prices to keep their Hummers on the road, what can one do? I sure wish, tho, that they'd spread around that "embarrassment of riches". At least Bushco, I'm sure, is making out nicely.

[Heather]

Two words: conspiracy theory

[amberdawn]

^^ Yep. Thats right Heather.

[Ashlyn]

Two words: conspiracy theory

... doesn't make it untrue.

I haven't done a ton of investigation into it, but it does seem awful stinky to me.

Oil companies... and therefore likely BUSH are benefiting from the deaths of thousands of innocents, including our soildiers. :)

[Heather]

Actually, it does. We were never there for oil. If we wanted oil, we would have gone after in '91. But we didnt then, and we're not doing it now.

And if youre so ticked off about the high oil prices, here's a thought. Lets stop relying on the Middle East for our oil, but rather drill it from our own shores. Tell the envirnomnentalists to back off, and we can drill from the Alaska tundra, and our oil and gas prices will drop substantially.

[Ashlyn]

Bush wasn't president in '91.

[Heather]

No, his father was.

[Ashlyn]

So they ARE the same man with the exact same ideas...

Silly Republicans, always trying to differentiate between the two.

[Ol'blueyes]

They are men with the same exact ideas because they are both in the same political party. Besides how is it bad to compare the men in Iraq? Didn't we save the people of Kuwait in 91?

[Heather]

Yes, we did. And today, Kuwai is our staunchest ally in the Middle East. They are not the same person, Ashlyn. Thats like saying you and your mother are exactly the same. Completely ridiculous. However, their motives were the same. Liberation and the protection of America. Pure and simple. You should really look into the Persian Gulf conflict before you start posting about it.

[Noah]

WAIT!!! don't forget about WMD's.. stockpiles and stockpiles of 'em and the fact that Saddam was the REAL commander of Al Qaeda and masterminded the whole 9/11 thing! well, wait, ok.. first it was Al Qaeda and the WMD's right?? and going ahead and attacking Iraq before their military unleashed it's fury on our own soil right. you're right... those Iraqi boys were a tough bunch. ok, so then after that it was the liberation of Iraqis and protecting us from ummm.... not from the WMD's.. and not from the Iraqi terrorists, because there weren't any.. hmm. aww, jeez. It's so hard to tell these days with Bush and the gang.

because, I mean obviously... the Bush administration are the poster children for integrity, honesty, and looking out for the little guy, right. Considering Bush and Cheney still have ties to the oil industry and the fact that they are making absurd profits. But, how could we question such upstanding gentlemen?? It's not as if they come off as sleazy and arrogant or anything like that. shame on me. and conspiracy theory?? I think I'd just call it a consipracy.

Yes, exploiting our nations natural resources is a BRILLIANT idea. or, perhaps Americans could get over themselves and drive more fuel efficient cars, or perhaps this administration could ACTUALLY make alternative energy a priority by developing alternatives. like everything else this administration does, they're environmental policy and approach to energy alternatives is a joke.

I'm so sick of all these damned trees all in my way. I wish we could just cut 'em all down, and drill the hell out of Alaska, and Canada. Silly environmentalists. I mean, I'll be dead in umm... 60 years or so, so I don't really care if this earth is habitable by then.. I'll be up in heaven holding hands with jesus, laughing at all the homos and treehuggers.

[Ashlyn]

WAIT!!! don't forget about WMD's.. stockpiles and stockpiles of 'em and the fact that Saddam was the REAL commander of Al Qaeda and masterminded the whole 9/11 thing! well, wait, ok.. first it was Al Qaeda and the WMD's right?? and going ahead and attacking Iraq before their military unleashed it's fury on our own soil right. you're right... those Iraqi boys were a tough bunch. ok, so then after that it was the liberation of Iraqis and protecting us from ummm.... not from the WMD's.. and not from the Iraqi terrorists, because there weren't any.. hmm. aww, jeez. It's so hard to tell these days with Bush and the gang.


Oh silly you Noah... Bush KNEW there were no WMD's. He just wanted to save the Iraqis! They much prefer having their families killed. :)

[Noah]

Oh silly you Noah... Bush KNEW there were no WMD's. He just wanted to save the Iraqis! They much prefer having their families killed. :)


well, if you want to look at it that way, I mean... we could say that Bush went ahead and "liberated" them from this life, so now they're not stuck in Iraq anymore.

... oh, that's so wrong... it's not me talking, I sweare, it's the pints of booze :smack:

[Ashlyn]

Exactly... he liberated them right down to hell... since they're not bible-believin' Christians over in those parts, I hear. :ebraise:

[Noah]

Exactly... he liberated them right down to hell... since they're not bible-believin' Christians over in those parts, I hear. :ebraise:


Oh, so wrong, so wrong. Anyway, I'm sure they're will Allah now. It's us infidels who are in real trouble. Messin' about over in the holy land and stuff. we don't know what we're dabbling with over there.

[Ashlyn]

I get the feeling this stuff is going to be quoted when all the people of other opinions get back and we're going to come off looking like real asswipes.

Actually... oil is the ONLY realistic cause... the only one with evidence to back it up.

1. WMDs. -- The reason we're supposebly over there, or the first reason. Our safety. Makes sense, I suppose... but then again, oh wait... there were none.

2. Liberation -- The adminstrations excuse for the war once they discovered they had no real reason to be killing so many people. Who can argue? We're freeing them! Don't you see! Did you not see the purple fingers? They're much better off... forget that their cities are in ruins and lots of them are dead!

Theres got to be a REAL reason... but what?

Oil does seem to have more proof and realistic-ness then anything Bush & Co has thrown at us.

[Heather]

Exactly... he liberated them right down to hell... since they're not bible-believin' Christians over in those parts, I hear

Actually, there are christians in Iraq. They are the most tormented minority over there. My brother met a Christian Iraqi who asked him all about life here, and his beliefs as a Catholic. They actually had a pretty long conversation.

Im not even going to bother replying to the rest of what was posted, since it has no basis in fact, but is just Bush-bashing and hating pure and simple.

[OTH man]

i don't even wana get started so I'm going to try to not get mad at all ull hate and bashing towards Bush

but this is purelt a theory and not a cold hard fact and yes most Iraqis are Muslim but some are Christian

[Ol'blueyes]

Oh boy, all hells about to break loose.

[Jon]

So they ARE the same man with the exact same ideas...

Silly Republicans, always trying to differentiate between the two.

I don't have tons of time since i'm still on vacation, so i'll be quick and pithy with my statement. Liberals need to grow up and use facts and not name-calling.

[Ashlyn]

I don't have tons of time since i'm still on vacation, so i'll be quick and pithy with my statement. Liberals need to grow up and use facts and not name-calling.

Facts, okay!

American deaths in Iraq since war began -- 1863

Iraqi Civilains killed because of our military intervention -- between 23589 and 26705

Now if the adminstration doesnt have a DAMN good reason for their war, then thats a whole lot of murder.

Considering they've got ever-changing reasoning for their war, 1st WMDs, 2nd Liberation, either they made a REALLY big mistake or there is something stinky going one.

[Heather]

Why dont you try comparing the death rate of the Iraqi conflict to every other war in the history of the United States. The death toll in Iraq is minimal in comparison. We lost over 28000 Americans in a single battle in WW1...which, btw, we had even LESS reason to get involved in than we did in Iraq.

[Ashlyn]

So theres been a more pointless war with more pointless deaths. That doesn't excuse this one.

[Heather]

I can honestly say, with all certainty, that you are the only person in my entire life that I have ever heard refer to WW1, as a pointless war. By your standards, WW2s war against europe was pointless to, since it was the Japanese that bombed us, not Hitler. Gee, I guess we should have just let him on his merry way, be the happy dictator who wanted to exterminate Jews. Of course, we didnt know about that until after we won, so by your standards liberating Europe from Hitler was a mistake and a waste of American lives.

[Ashlyn]

Comparing Hitler and Saddam is entirely unfair. Saddam isn't even nearly in the same league.

Who was killed?
24,865 civilians were reported killed in the first two years.
Women and children accounted for almost 20% of all civilian deaths.
Baghdad alone recorded almost half of all deaths.

Now tell me what has made it worth it. Please. Then, try telling people who've lost somebody.

[Ol'blueyes]

Comparing Hitler and Saddam is entirely unfair. Saddam isn't even nearly in the same league.


Killing his own people-check
invading another country-check
brutal dictator-check


yeah your totally right.

[Ashlyn]

Saddam only invaded Kuwait, Hitler was invading all of Europe.

It's hardly a fair comparison.

Plus, Hitler was committing genocide in concentration camps, hardly the same idea.

Regardless, we've kept up Saddam's killing numbers through our occupation.

[Kay]

Killing his own people-check
invading another country-check
brutal dictator-check


yeah your totally right.

Saddam invaded one country. Hitler more then one.
Hitler and Saddam were both evil true but you can't seriously consider them to be in teh same league!

I have a question. If the US invaded Iraq because of WMD and found nothing, then found it to be the right thing to free the people of Iraq simply because of Saddam. With no interest in its oil. Why are they not going to war with some of the Arafican countries who are currently suffering worse then the Iraqies are? Its a known fact that the African goverment, like other countries, is curropted and causing the death of so many people?

[Ashlyn]

Exactly, Kay...

The qualifications Bush is using to justify invading Iraq apply to several other countries, and as Noah has mentioned before, countries that are our ALLIES.

[Heather]

Because you have to focus your military on one target at a time. Targeting all those countries would weaken our military, and cause ten times more deaths.

[Ol'blueyes]

which then would be complained about by the same people who are critisizing the war today.

[Ashlyn]

Because you have to focus your military on one target at a time. Targeting all those countries would weaken our military, and cause ten times more deaths.

So are we then to assume that we'll continue this World Tour of War after we're "finished" in Iraq? That we'll be having war for pretty much the rest of my lifetime?

[SeasideSweetie3]

I don't think that's what she meant...

[Heather]

No, its not what I meant. The fact of the matter is, whether or not you and Noah choose to believe it, is that Saddam was a threat to the US, and had to be removed. Liberating the Iraqis was only a part of it. Saddam had to be removed from power. There was no question about that.

And yes, there are African nations that practice genocide, and need to be taken care of as well, but we cant take on the whole world. We need to focus on those nations that threaten the security of the US, and our allies. Thats why we are so focused on Iraq and N. Korea right now.

And before you jump into the whole "they dont want us there" Iraq argument. That is a crock. They do want us there. And I listened to you spout off statistics about the numbers of Iraqis who were killed. Well, guess what. We didnt kill them. Their own fanatic factions did, or in many cases, Islamic fanatics who came into Iraq post the ousting of Saddam, like the Syrians did. THEY are the ones that are killing innocent Iraqis. Not us.

Also, before you go into the whole, "they would stop if we left" thats ridiculous. Why would they stop, when there is no one to protect the innocent? They wouldnt. They have an agenda, and there is no reasoning with them. These are people who will not stop until we are all dead.

Like Stephen always said, "Those who desire peace, prepare for war."

If you look closely at that statement you will see the truth in it. But you have to think about it, and look closely.

[Kay]

And before you jump into the whole "they dont want us there" Iraq argument. That is a crock. They do want us there. And I listened to you spout off statistics about the numbers of Iraqis who were killed. Well, guess what. We didnt kill them. Their own fanatic factions did, or in many cases, Islamic fanatics who came into Iraq post the ousting of Saddam, like the Syrians did. THEY are the ones that are killing innocent Iraqis. Not us.

Are you saying that the US army and this war caused none of the deaths? True the "Islamic fanatics" caused some deaths but nothing near the amount of deaths caused by the war.
And if the the Iraqies wanted you there and its only the "Islamic fanatics" who didn't, wouldn't the number of angry people storming teh streets and protesting against the US army be much less?

Also, before you go into the whole, "they would stop if we left" thats ridiculous. Why would they stop, when there is no one to protect the innocent? They wouldnt. They have an agenda, and there is no reasoning with them. These are people who will not stop until we are all dead

No one would need to protect the innocent. After all Saddam who was the evil one behind it and he's already gone. The only trouble now is that people [maybe not all but most] don't like having an outside power telling them what to do.
Also, if the US are there to protect the innocent then how long are they gonna stay there? Until every last "Islamic fanatics" is gone? Or every soilder is dead?

[Heather]

First of, I cant believe you directed that last sentence towards me. What do you expect me to say to that? Yes, I want my brother to die?

As for the rest:

1. I didnt mean to imply we werent responsible for any deaths, if that is how you took it. But the majority of the Iraqi deaths there, were by non-coalition forces, namely terrorists. Thats a simple fact.

2. You are dealing with people who lived under a mass murdering dictator for almost 30 years. You cant easily gain courage after living in fear for that long. Look at the mass graves. Look at the actions of Hussein's sons, which he allowed. These people lived in terror, everyday of their lives. So, if they were too afraid to stand up to Hussein, it is understandable, since fear was part of their everyday lives. Stephen told me about several occasions where that was illustrated, but I wont get into that.

3. What message do you think it would send to these terrorists if we gave up and withdrew? It would say that we are weak. And we cant display weakness to them, or what happened on 9/11...what happened in London....what happened in Spain...will continue to happen, viciously. We're talking about people who decapitate innocent civilians, then post it on the internet. How do you propose we negotiate with those type of people? There is no reasoning. Its kill, or be killed, people. And I dont know about you, but I have no inclination to sit back, and let them destroy us.

[Ol'blueyes]

We're talking about people who decapitate innocent civilians, then post it on the internet. How do you propose we negotiate with those type of people? There is no reasoning. Its kill, or be killed, people. And I dont know about you, but I have no inclination to sit back, and let them destroy us.

And might I add that the people who decapitate innocent civilians, carried out those actions in IRAQ.

As for the whole "innocent iraqie murder" that many of you so happen to state in your posts, its just yet again a contradiction. You claim they are being killed by us, which would mean our soldiers, who you support and want home. That makes no sense. And as for the number of iraq civilians who have been killed that is nothing compared to the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings of World War 2 which killed basically all INNOCENT japanese civilians however its not quite considered a big deal today.

[Kay]

I didn't mean for it to be directed towards you. Why would I do that? It was a hypthatical question!

2. You are dealing with people who lived under a mass murdering dictator for almost 30 years. You cant easily gain courage after living in fear for that long. Look at the mass graves. Look at the actions of Hussein's sons, which he allowed. These people lived in terror, everyday of their lives. So, if they were too afraid to stand up to Hussein, it is understandable, since fear was part of their everyday lives. Stephen told me about several occasions where that was illustrated, but I wont get into that.

& They have everyright to be in shock and have fears but how long are the US gonna protect them? Why can't they just apoint a leader for them and let them live in peace? No completely leave them alone...still keep in touch [it could be frased better] and step back in if its needed!!

3. What message do you think it would send to these terrorists if we gave up and withdrew? It would say that we are weak. And we cant display weakness to them, or what happened on 9/11...what happened in London....what happened in Spain...will continue to happen, viciously. We're talking about people who decapitate innocent civilians, then post it on the internet. How do you propose we negotiate with those type of people? There is no reasoning. Its kill, or be killed, people. And I dont know about you, but I have no inclination to sit back, and let them destroy us

But all those bombings and killings were actually made by stupid people who are stupid enough to think they are fighting in the name of Islam. They would not go and kill civilians in Iraq. They wouldn't be able to explain it to other Islamic/Arabic people..rigfht now shockingly enough some people think what those people are doing is right because they've minuplated people that much...but they wouldn't dare bomb anyone if the U.S. [& whatever other] army wasn't there.

And might I add that the people who decapitate innocent civilians, carried out those actions in IRAQ.

As for the whole "innocent iraqie murder" that many of you so happen to state in your posts, its just yet again a contradiction. You claim they are being killed by us, which would mean our soldiers, who you support and want home. That makes no sense. And as for the number of iraq civilians who have been killed that is nothing compared to the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings of World War 2 which killed basically all INNOCENT japanese civilians however its not quite considered a big deal today.

So what? Arabic people were the ones who were responsible for the bombing of teh towers does that mean every last one is like them? Same with the Iraqies..there were some who did that but not all.

Of course its considered a big deal...just because people don't speak of it dosn't make it any less important.

[Heather]

And might I add that the people who decapitate innocent civilians, carried out those actions in IRAQ.

As for the whole "innocent iraqie murder" that many of you so happen to state in your posts, its just yet again a contradiction. You claim they are being killed by us, which would mean our soldiers, who you support and want home. That makes no sense. And as for the number of iraq civilians who have been killed that is nothing compared to the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings of World War 2 which killed basically all INNOCENT japanese civilians however its not quite considered a big deal today.


Thank you!!! :bow:

Thats what pisses me off so much! How they call our soldiers "murderers" for what is happening over there, and then turn around and say, "We support the troops". What a load of BS! You cant support them and call them murderers at the same time. Is it any wonder that the military has no stomach for liberals in America? When they are not only criticized for doing their jobs, but labelled murderers as well? *shakes head* Pick a side. I can name at least one member who posts in here who called what is happening in Iraq murder, then turns around to claim to support our military. Puhlease. You cant have it both ways. So pick a side, already, and stick with it. At least that way, the military would respect you (somewhat)

[Ol'blueyes]

Yeah well I can understand now why John Kerry was elected for the Democratic nominee. What really bothers me is that after 9/11 we claimed,"United we stand, divided we fall," and today this country is divided. Divided in the sense that many people in this country do not respect our country's wishes to be in the war, and most importantly support for its troops. Terrorists feed on this kind of crap. I don't understand why people can't realize that life isn't a movie like Fahrenheit 9/11, it's real and instead of relying on movies or music groups, they should go straight to the truth which is our own soldiers who are ostensibly to them, murderers but yet they support them but not what they're doing.

[Heather]

They would not go and kill civilians in Iraq. They wouldn't be able to explain it to other Islamic/Arabic people..rigfht now shockingly enough some people think what those people are doing is right because they've minuplated people that much
That is exactly what they have been doing, though. Honestly, the best way to fight these terrorists is through educating the others. Then they could read the Koran for themselves, and see what these people are spouting at the mosques, what these terrorists proclaim, is not the word of Mohammed. But that would take years, because they are taught hatred from the cradle.

And the fanatics encourage that hatred.

As for the killings in Iraq...*sigh* The terrorists are the ones who are killing the Iraqis right now. We just want to be an overseer, thats it. But unfortunately, we cant be. We need to be more involved to give them a chance.

There are a few who find the strength to fight back, to come to the Americans and help them, even knowing that their lives, and their families lives are in jeopardy by them making that action. Let me ask you something, Kay.

If you knew you could make things better...could help stop these terrorists, but by doing so, your entire family would be murdered. Would you do it? Would you do what you felt you had to do, knowing that your mother would be killed...your siblings would be killed...your father would try to kill you. Would you be strong and do whats right?

There are some Iraqis who do...even when faced with that. If only we could all be that strong.

eta

Yeah well I can understand now why John Kerry was elected for the Democratic nominee.
I actually had a nightmare the week of the election. I was sitting on my bed, in my Bush/Cheney tshirt, watching the returns, and Kerry won. I completely freaked when I woke up.

The night before the election, Stephen called from Baghdad, and I told him about my nightmare. He said, "Dont worry, Heath. Our guy will win." I told him, "Im holding you to that." :lol:

[Ol'blueyes]

So what? Arabic people were the ones who were responsible for the bombing of teh towers does that mean every last one is like them? Same with the Iraqies..there were some who did that but not all.

Of course its considered a big deal...just because people don't speak of it dosn't make it any less important.

I never said that all Arabic people in Iraq decapitated innocent people. I said the people who did carry out those actions did them IN IRAQ where they claim they are allies of Al Qaeda.

Yes but the point is, more innocent people died in that attack then those who died in Iraq and yet it seems like the biggest deal is made when less people have died.

[Kay]

Honestly. I dont know. probably. But in a way I'll need more certianity...I wouldn't be responsible for anyones death..family or otherwise...if chances of my success were not high!

I know Saddam was an evil person and what he did was too evil. But when he was leader no terrorists attacked.
The US attacked because they thought they were in trouble and that Saddam had weapons which threatened them...however, they didn't. Would the US have bothered with Iraq is they had no information about the weapons?

& the soliders. I'm against the war. I support it in no possible way. BUT the soilders are still giving up there lives to protect people they don't know...and for that they deserve respect; it wasn't their idea to go war...its their job..I'm not saying they were all forced maybe some believe in it, but none-the-less their courage deserves respect!

[Heather]

^^ Very true!!!!

And like I said earlier, when you count the casualties in Iraq, with every other conflict in US history, it is minimal.

Thats not to say that every death isnt tragic, but death is a part of war...and these guys signed up for it, knowing what they were getting into. And when you look at the statistics. The US deaths in Iraq, still no where equal the US deaths on 9/11.

I know Saddam was an evil person and what he did was too evil. But when he was leader no terrorists attacked.
Why would they? Saddam was doing the work for them. And Im not going to reply on the WMD thing. Ive already replied on that more than once, its like beating a dead horse.

the soliders. I'm against the war. I support it in no possible way. BUT the soilders are still giving up there lives to protect people they don't know...and for that they deserve respect; it wasn't their idea to go war...its their job..I'm not saying they were all forced maybe some believe in it, but none-the-less their courage deserves respect!
Yes, it does. Which is why I get so mad when I hear people refer to our military as killers *cough* liberators *cough*. In my mind, that is biting the mouth that feeds you. You want free speech as an American? Well, guess who ensures that you have it? Its the very people you accuse of being murderers.

And for those non-Americans and their criticisms (not talking about you, Kay). These people are willing to lay down their lives for YOU. The least they deserve is your respect, and admiration. And if you continue to treat our military the way that you have...well....have fun learning arabic.

[Kay]

And for those non-Americans and their criticisms (not talking about you, Kay). These people are willing to lay down their lives for YOU. The least they deserve is your respect, and admiration. And if you continue to treat our military the way that you have...well....have fun learning arabic.

Why have fun learning Arabic?!

[Ashlyn]

Heather is trying to insinuate that this war of "liberation" is actually a war of "protection" and if we weren't killing Iraqi citizens our country would be taken over.

Regardless of interference over there i'd HOPE that if we were attacked on our grounds our army would be able to hold their own and keep us from being taken over. If that is not so, then we need to stop gloating about our miliitary 24/7.

[Heather]

^^ its comments like that that make the military despise liberals like you.

Could our soldiers have stopped 9/11? No, they couldnt. Because this is a war where the enemy has no face, no name to identify him. And if you cant understand and comprehend that, I feel sorry for you.

[Ashlyn]

And this faceless enemy is best fought by randomly bombing countries?

[Heather]

No, this enemy is fought easier when you take the fight to them, instead of waiting for them to kill you again. It is fought easier when you target those leaders who aid and abed these terrorists, and remove them from power.

[Ol'blueyes]

And since we have been there, we have not been attacked again on our soil.

[Heather]

^^ thank you! :bow:

[Ashlyn]

Actually... great thought... if we kill EVERYBODY else theres no chance of us getting attacked!

[Heather]

AShlyn....*shakes head*

What does it say to you that we havent been attacked since 9/11? What does it say that the insurgents are not Iraqis? That the Iraqis themselves want us there, support our actions, and our thankful for them? What does it say that since we have toppled the Taliban, and invaded Iraq, we have put Al Queda on the run?

Nevermind..I already know the answer. You are so close minded in your judgements that you refuse to see the good of what has been accomplished over there. Even when it is reported here, on FB, by one of our own soldiers. You simply ignore the statements, then go for the attack when you feel it is once again safe to.

Its sad, really.

[Ol'blueyes]

The only people we are killing are actually the terrorists themselves. Any "innocent iraqi" that has been murdered is due to the terrorists who enjoy killing their own civilians.

Oh yeah aren't you for the soldiers but yet you like to call them murderers. And before you go posting about how its Bush actually killing them, realize for the millionth time that these soldiers enlisted themselves.
It's amazing how when a democrat critisizes the war, and you ask them what they would have done or what they would do now, they never answer you.

[Heather]

Or how they would have reacted to Milosevic and Operation Black Down, and you are meant with silence, and/or confusion.

And Ashlyn,
According to your last post, it would be better for us to be dead, then the terrorists. Good luck with that message, really.

[Ashlyn]

I do NOT believe that we are any safer since invading Iraq. The fact that we haven't had a terrorist attack is NOT proof that our war is keeping us safe. It is a number of elements. One of my teachers presented an interesting idea today... maybe the terrorist's new plan of attack is to get our economy to fall apart because of overspending on the war.

What does it say to you that we havent been attacked since 9/11? What does it say that the insurgents are not Iraqis? That the Iraqis themselves want us there, support our actions, and our thankful for them? What does it say that since we have toppled the Taliban, and invaded Iraq, we have put Al Queda on the run?

Nevermind..I already know the answer. You are so close minded in your judgements that you refuse to see the good of what has been accomplished over there. Even when it is reported here, on FB, by one of our own soldiers. You simply ignore the statements, then go for the attack when you feel it is once again safe to.

Its sad, really.

First of all, once again you say "The Iraqis want us there", which is a gross generalization. Give me a poll with real numbers, real evidence that a high majority of them are okay with the American occupation.

I understand that some soilders have witnessed firsthand that there are thankful Iraqis. But... these guys have guns... the civilians that wish we'd never came are unlikely to go up and share their opinion.

I think Iraq is a second-hand, silly war. I understand much of why we are needed in Afghanistan. I understand why we are chasing Osama. BUT... I think it is unfair to link the war in Iraq to September 11th, because I don't think they have much to do with each other.

What good has been done over there? Please, share! Death, destruction, forced elections in an ill-prepared country? As somebody else said, forced democracy will never work.

I ignored the comments by a soldier because I didn't think I could add anything. I have GREAT respect for the soildiers willing to risk their lives. I think it takes amazing courage. They are amazing people, really.

However, I think that we should be VERY, VERY careful before we endanger their lives.

Bush's ORIGINAL reason, the one I heard over and over again, for going into Iraq was Weapons of Mass Destruction.

They. Weren't. There.

Even if ever citizen in Iraq was happy and fulfilled because of a secondhand "Liberation" because the administration couldn't find any other purpose to show the country for our being there... it wouldn't change the fact that we went into the country because of LIES told to the American public.

The administration should not be allowed to scrape by with such big lies. Life-taking, earth-shattering, LIES!

Saddam being out of power is in all ways a good thing, I totally agree. I'm glad he's gone. But it seems like in this day and age we should be able to find a way to deal with international issues that doesn't involve weapons and death.

To be they should be outdated. Diplomacy should be used in all courses. We're to far advanced to still be doing senseless killing. War should be something of the past.

[Ol'blueyes]

However, I think that we should be VERY, VERY careful before we endanger their lives.

Bush's ORIGINAL reason, the one I heard over and over again, for going into Iraq was Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Ok first off, the whole we endangering their lives is not quite correct because maybe hopefully for the last time I'll state that WE nor our country has forced any of our soldiers to fight in a war. They signed up for themselves because they saw what happened to this country after 9/11 and have enough PATRIOTISM and love for their country. There is no DRAFT. And when I say 9/11 I'm not talking about relation to Iraq even though the terrorists who have beheaded the innocent AMERICANS who lived there, claimed to be in association with Al Qaeda. I'm talking about the world coming face to face with terrorism in our country for the very first time and realizing it will be a future problem for the rest of the world. Also, Bush was never by himself in his accusations that there were WMDS in the country of Iraq. He was told by Vladmir Putin of Russia and Tony Blair that there was substantial evidence to proceed in accusing Iraq of WMDS.


But it seems like in this day and age we should be able to find a way to deal with international issues that doesn't involve weapons and death.

To be they should be outdated. Diplomacy should be used in all courses. We're to far advanced to still be doing senseless killing.

On March 19, 2003 we requested that Saddam surrender or else he would be faced with war therefore your accusation that all we do in world situations is involving weapons is completely false. There we go with the senseless killing, who is doing that by the way? The soldiers right, because they have the guns? But you support them.

And once again I'll state that when you ask any liberal/democrat as to what they would have done after 9/11 and what they would do now, they never answer you.

[Ashlyn]

Yes, they signed up.

But just cause we have their lives to spend doesn't mean we should do it carelessly.

[Noah]

Hey! Me, over here! I'll answer!

Q: What course of action would you have taken in the aftermath of 9/11?

A: (Me) Well, initially, I would assess and possible security faults and immediately put into action a plan to implement better security infrastructure and completely revamp, and reform security and stabilizations within this country. The main priority would be the protection and security of Americans. I would call all Americans to work together to make this country more secure, and not simply.... "go about your daily lives.. travel, buy hummers and plasma screen Televisions" but ask Americans to ask themselves what can they do to help this country.

As far as those responsible for the attacks. I would meet with our allies: GB, France, Germany, Japan etc. and figure out a plan to deal with the growing danger of terrorist attacks. Again, this is another area where my plan would differ. Instead using the world's sympathy and support towards America to advance an agenda for an Iraq invasion, I would use their support to develop a plan to globally fight terrorism. My war on terroists would be one fought through intelligence, secret services, spies and that sort of thing. Instead of an all-out, blatant ground war, this war would be fought utilizing intelligence and covert operations.

I would then get to the bottom of the problem by meeting with various rulers and figures of authority in the middle-east. Including, and especially those who oppose the United States policies. I believe through talking ant negotiation we could reach some common ground and help to end the spread of Islamic Fanaticism. By getting to the root of the problem, I would attempt to deter the spread of terrorism and the perversion of the religion of Islam, and attempt to find grounds in which Western and Eastern countries can coeist peacefully.

Now, those directly responsible would be sought out, taken into custody, questioned, tried and sentenced. I would systematically dismantle terrorist networks, and preventing these networks from recruiting others, including young people who are impressionable. Instead of taking a reckless sort of approach that we have taken I would have used a certain degree of delicacy when approaching the problem. Only through be tolerable and understanding will any common ground be reached.

I wouldn't be giving massive tax cuts to huge corporations, and the revenue gained from this would be used in implementing and tightening security in this country. The money that has been spent towards the war in Iraq would also go to strengthening our own economy, job market, and security.


so, that's just an outline of what I would have done in the aftermath of 9/11.

[Heather]

As far as those responsible for the attacks. I would meet with our allies: GB, France, Germany, Japan etc. and figure out a plan to deal with the growing danger of terrorist attacks.
We already tried that, Noah. And honestly, until Germany and France are themselves attacked, they will never see this as anything more than an American problem. GB has helped, Japan has sent aid. The others choose to ignore the problem, until it is taken to them. Im not satisfied with that as a solution.

I would then get to the bottom of the problem by meeting with various rulers and figures of authority in the middle-east. Including, and especially those who oppose the United States policies. I believe through talking ant negotiation we could reach some common ground and help to end the spread of Islamic Fanaticism. By getting to the root of the problem, I would attempt to deter the spread of terrorism and the perversion of the religion of Islam, and attempt to find grounds in which Western and Eastern countries can coeist peacefully.
What most liberals seem to ignore, or simply not comprehend, is that there is no negotiating with these people. They are bred this hatred from birth, and will not stop until we are destroyed. Its us or them. There is no negotiating. We've tried that in the past, with Israel and Palestine. What were the results? Nothing. These fanatics wont rest until we are exterminated. And I dont know about you, but if its a choice between them or us, I choose us. Negotiation, while a nice idea, is simply not an option anymore.

[celebfan2005]

conspiracy theory

[Heather]

A must read:

Saddam Hussein: Kurds Deserved to be Massacred

Saddam Hussein has reportedly told prosecutors that his decision to massacre 180,000 Kurdish citizens of Iraq was both legal and justified.

An official with the Iraqi tribunal that will try Saddam's case told the Associated Press Tuesday that the Iraqi dictator demanded that a court decide if he was justified in ordering the so-called Anfal campaign in 1987-88.

The tribunal official said the former dictator views the mass killings as "retribution," which he said was legal under his regime.
The attacks killed more than 180,000 Kurds and resulted in the ethnic cleansing of numerous Kurdish communities in northern Iraq.

The tribunal official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case, said Saddam made his statements last month during questioning in preparation for his trial, scheduled to begin Oct. 19.

The official's remarks appeared to challenge a claim by Iraqi President Jalal Talabani that Saddam has admitted his guilt for killings and other "crimes" committed during his regime.

UNITED NATIONS -- An exhaustive investigation of the Iraq oil-for-food program has made clear that the United Nations simply isn't capable of taking on massive tasks like the $64 billion operation and will never be unless it adopts a host of reforms, the probe's chief said.

The Independent Inquiry Committee's comprehensive report, released Wednesday, exposed failures across the U.N. system, from Secretary-General Kofi Annan, to his deputy to the U.N. Security Council. They allowed corruption to flourish and stood by as Saddam Hussein bilked about $10.2 billion, it found.

In the report, former U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker's team recommended several reforms, including establishing an Independent Auditing Board to fully review U.N. programs and creating and urgently filling the position of a chief executive officer.
Secretary-General Kofi Annan urged world leaders at next week's U.N. summit to use the "golden opportunity" to adopt the reforms, but many developing nations object because they think doing so could strip them of coveted power.

"It would be unfortunate for the U.N. in my opinion, if faced by all this evidence, they don't do enough," Volcker told The Associated Press. "I think you're forced to the conclusion that if they don't, the world has lost a potentially important resource when problems of this sort arise. And if they don't reform, they shouldn't undertake any programs of this sort."

The Volcker committee's five-volume, 1,036-page report reveals just how bad things had become in the program, and how tainted the U.N. image has become as a result. Yet it says reform is urgent because there is no other organization like the United Nations in the world to be able to take on such tasks.

"At stake is the United Nations' ability to respond promptly and effectively to the responsibilities thrust upon it by the realities of a turbulent, and often violent, world," the report said.

Oil-for-food was originally designed to provide health care for millions of Iraqis trying to cope with tough U.N. sanctions imposed after Saddam's 1990 invasion of Kuwait.

But Saddam, who could choose the buyers of Iraqi oil and the sellers of humanitarian goods, manipulated the program by awarding contracts to - and getting kickbacks from - favored buyers, who most often supported his regime or opposed the sanctions.

The report, which came after a year-long, $34 million investigation, faulted Annan and his deputy, Canada's Louise Frechette, of tolerating corruption and doing little to stop Saddam's manipulations. The powerful U.N. Security Council was accused of doing much the same.

"In the first place the program left too much initiative with Iraq," Volcker told the Security Council earlier Wednesday. "It was, as one past member of this council has put it, a compact with the devil, and the devil had means for manipulating the program to his ends."

The findings led to new criticism from U.S. congressmen leading their own investigations of oil-for-food in Washington. Senator Norm Coleman, R-Minn., reiterated his call for Annan's resignation, while Christopher Shays, R-Conn., said the report raised questions about his leadership.

Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill., stopped short of calling for Annan's resignation but offered a withering assessment nonetheless.

"If the U.N. Secretariat and its member states ignore the profound lessons detailed in this report, the institution itself will be imperiled by the morass of corruption that increasingly undermines its already tattered legitimacy," he said in a statement.

Annan told reporters he would not resign.

Volcker's report is the fourth of five. The final one, expected in October, will study the companies involved in the purchase of Iraqi oil or sale of humanitarian goods under the program.

In August, officials with the probe said about half the 4,500 companies that took part in the program in Iraq paid kickbacks or illegal surcharges and are being given a chance to respond to the accusations.

Volcker told the AP that one striking thing about those companies was just how many were of Russian origin. Russia was a leading opponent of the sanctions and Wednesday's report suggests it may have tried to stall on efforts to probe corruption in the program.

"The Russian thing just jumps out at you," Volcker said. "But there in particular, they claim that a good many of those are not Russian at all in substance."

While much of the attention focused on U.N. management, the report also addressed lingering issues about Annan's son Kojo, who was once employed by a Swiss company called Cotecna that sought - and eventually won - a contract to do work under oil-for-food.

The committee said additional evidence supplied by Kojo Annan established that he assisted Cotecna in its effort to win the contract, contrary to earlier denials. But the report said it appears Cotecna won the contract because it was the low bidder. "It is not known whether Kojo Annan's efforts made a difference," it said.

Kojo Annan said in a statement issued by his London lawyers that he never attempted to influence the awarding of the contract.

In addition, he used his father's "name and position" in 1998 to buy and deliver a car at a reduced price, the probe said. It said he asked beforehand whether he could buy the car in his father's name, but there was no evidence to show the secretary-general ever agreed.

Kojo Annan called the car discount a youthful "indiscretion" that he regrets.

This is the man you think we shouldnt have removed from power? And the organization we need to preserve???

[Quinton]

two words: ping pong

[celebfan2005]

two words: <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=ping%20pong" onmouseover="window.status='ping pong'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">ping pong</a>


nice one quinton

[Heather]

So, the other day, I was watching this thing on the History Channel, about the Bible Code, which I know most of you will dismiss as some crackpot right wing Christian thing, even though most of the decoders are Jews...but anyway.

I found this part of it particularly interesting. In one decoding, they found the name "Osama Bin Laden" along with "captured" "hated by those who find him".

There was another decode that said:
"Weapons of mass destruction" "moved" "buried in Damascus"

Hmmm...havent us conservatives been saying all along that they were smuggled out to Syria before the US invaded Iraq?

I think it would be very interesting if that proves to be true.

eta

What good has been done over there? Please, share! Death, destruction, forced elections in an ill-prepared country? As somebody else said, forced democracy will never work.

What have we accomplished? Well, after telling off Cindy Sheehan a few weeks ago in a TV studio, and telling my brother about it. He had a few things to say about her...which I wont post in this thread. I already posted them elsewhere.

However, he did say some thing that relate to that post of yours, Ashlyn. So, you want to know? Well, heres your answer:

I am so sick of these liberals who make us sound like trigger happy morons!!! When we got to Baghdad there were over 200 police stations, that were a mess! By the time we left, we had 99 fully operational police stations, as well as a police academy, that are still fully operational!

There were over 400 schools in Baghdad that were a mess. When we left, there were over 200 schools, that were open, supplied, and teaching. So, dont tell me we dont accomplish anything over there!!!

His words, not mine. So the tone of the post is also his, and not mine. He gets pretty heated when the whole Iraq issue comes up, and hears people condemning what our soldiers are doing over there. What can I say? Hes Irish like me, so that temper flares every once in a while. :lol:

[marianne]

I just read more or less through this whole thread and please, Heather, I don't think even once anyone has said anything bad about the soldiers down there. There has been questioning of reasons, politics and similar.. But no-one has made even one slightly negative comment about the soldiers down there. So stop complaining that everyone is.

Second, I don't know who said it but it was what made me have to post here.. Someone said something about us "non-us countries should be happy the soldiers are down there or we would be taken over and have to learn arabic?". Are you being serious?!

No! The schools in Norway, my country, would not be learning arabic or even be in danger of being "taken over" had the troops not been in Iraq. I really don't see where you feel you have enough ground to make such a statement?!

Also, I don't know why people are still denying that Bush and his people told lies when the us went into Iraq. They were lies. That's it, why are you defending that? There's just no point.

I have a friend that is down there and here is what he said about the war:
(Not a direct quote)

"I just wish there were some actual reason for me being here. That I could die knowing that I had fought for a good 'cause and that I had made a difference. The thing is, if I do die down here I won't. This war is pointless. When the Iraq war is "over" and it goes another 10 years, who will remember? What will the difference be?"

And I can't see how anyone could disagree with his words. They are true, or so I feel.

Also, who said that only Japan and GB had helped with the war?! Other countries like, I don't know.. Norway?! Is down there too! And we shouldn't even be! We were a neutral country, deciding so after the second world war. The only reason we are down there is because our alliance with the us is so precious to our government. When asking our people; no, the mayority didn't want to send our troops down there.

And before anyone starts bashing on the fact that we in your eyes shouldn't be neutral in the first place, then if you live in america you can't really say that because the us hasn't really ever been taken over by another power.

I get so worked up by the way alot of you make your points. Everything isn't black and white. How can you say "those people are a killed or get killed kind of people"? If there are both, as someone said, both christians and arabic down there.. wouldn't that mean that maybe not ALL OF THEM are EXCACTLY the same? You would say it's soo obvious that Bush and his father aren't EXCACTLY the same, how could anyone make such a stupid statement right? Altough, it's okay for you to cut a whole country over the same knife? Why?

Now I don't really wanna get sucked into this whole discussion. I don't check the facts and I don't really know a whole lot of the facts about the war when it comes to things as death numbers etc. And it's even harder to try to write it all in english and I hope you can all understand what I just wrote.

I have to point out something that's probably gonna make some people really mad, but who saw Fahrenheit 9/11? Why are we all denying the facts shown in that movie? Why can't we accept that that's the theory that makes the most sense? Why are alot of you so caught up in being inside your little box that you can't even look out the window and accept the fact that MAYBE not EVERYTHING Bush does is perfect?

Also, I support the troops down there. I just don't support the cause.
Don't start with me on the "they signed up" thing. Has everyone forgotten that alot of those that sign up to the military do it for the money? The possibillity of getting an education? For some it's their only chance to 'make something of themselves'. Not everyone that signs up does it because they believe in the cause and are willing to die for it. Alot of them do it because they want to come back to a better life. Don't deny that. As I said before, please stop seing everything in such black and white. Stop with the stereotypes. It's just not right and it really, really annoys me when you do. Each by their individual, not by their most fitting group. Just because you know one soldiers opinion or maybe because that soldier knows one Iraq's opinion doesn't make it right for you to state that that is the universal opinion for 'them' all. Seriously.

[Quinton]

uh oh... now you gone done it.

*ducks and takes cover*

[Faith]

hehe Quinton, ssh up :hehe:

I'm sure everyone can remain mature about this subject, and not lower themselves to bickering... though as me ol' ma always says, 'never get into a debate about religion, family or politics... it always ends in tears.'

[Heather]

I just read more or less through this whole thread and please, Heather, I don't think even once anyone has said anything bad about the soldiers down there. There has been questioning of reasons, politics and similar.. But no-one has made even one slightly negative comment about the soldiers down there. So stop complaining that everyone is.
You try telling that to the soldiers. They see the same news we do, and are disgusted by it. You say you're criticizing the war, and not the soldiers. Well, this war is their job. And they see it as a criticism on them.

As for our complaining, we're just voicing the opinions of our soldiers who arent here to post themselves. Stephen voiced his own opinion some months ago....read it. We have every right to voice what they cant, because they dont have the opportunity, so dont try and take that right away from us. They're our loved ones, and if we want to be their voice, thats our right.

Second, I don't know who said it but it was what made me have to post here.. Someone said something about us "non-us countries should be happy the soldiers are down there or we would be taken over and have to learn arabic?". Are you being serious?!
Yes, we are dead serious. This fight that these terrorists wage isnt just against American, but against all westernized nations. Madrid, London...ring a bell? And if you think that living in Norway will keep you safe, you are sorely mistaken. Do your research.

I get so worked up by the way alot of you make your points. Everything isn't black and white. How can you say "those people are a killed or get killed kind of people"? If there are both, as someone said, both christians and arabic down there.. wouldn't that mean that maybe not ALL OF THEM are EXCACTLY the same? You would say it's soo obvious that Bush and his father aren't EXCACTLY the same, how could anyone make such a stupid statement right? Altough, it's okay for you to cut a whole country over the same knife? Why?
First of all...yes, they're mentality is death to the end. Whether it be ours, or theirs. This doesnt extend to Christians, or the true Muslims who follow the law of Allah. This is for the terrorists, who were safeguarded in Iraq, and who have since come into that other country from other nations, in order to kill. They kill innocent Muslims. They kill innocent Christians. Should we just walk away and let them do so? No, we shouldnt, and we cant.

have to point out something that's probably gonna make some people really mad, but who saw Fahrenheit 9/11? Why are we all denying the facts shown in that movie? Why can't we accept that that's the theory that makes the most sense? Why are alot of you so caught up in being inside your little box that you can't even look out the window and accept the fact that MAYBE not EVERYTHING Bush does is perfect?
Because anyone who knows anyone about what is going on there, or what led us to invade, knows that movie is pure lies. Its not a documentary. Liberals will tell you that. Michael Moore twisted facts to support his political agenda. If it were an ACTUAL truth based documentary, it would have been discussed, but its not.

Don't start with me on the "they signed up" thing. Has everyone forgotten that alot of those that sign up to the military do it for the money? The possibillity of getting an education? For some it's their only chance to 'make something of themselves'. Not everyone that signs up does it because they believe in the cause and are willing to die for it. Alot of them do it because they want to come back to a better life. Don't deny that. As I said before, please stop seing everything in such black and white. Stop with the stereotypes. It's just not right and it really, really annoys me when you do. Each by their individual, not by their most fitting group. Just because you know one soldiers opinion or maybe because that soldier knows one Iraq's opinion doesn't make it right for you to state that that is the universal opinion for 'them' all. Seriously.
Its a fact. They did volunteer. I know a lot of people who have. Does that mean that i worry for them less, or that if my brother died, I would be nonchalant and say, 'Well, it was his choice.' Of course not.

But the soldiers down there know what they are doing, and believe in it. If you dont, thats your perrogative. But then you cant say that your issue isnt with the soldiers who support Bush, and are happy to take a stand. My brother is actually UPSET that hes NOT going to Afghanistan. Me, Im ecstatic. Him...he loves the Middle East, and its people, and wants to go help and protect them. So, like you said...dont even go there.

Also, your post was really pissy. You should seriously calm down. I have several family members, plus friends, in the midst of a war zone. Do you see me getting all angry and pissy just because you dont agree with my (or their) views.

You also said that you dont know the facts. Perhaps you should learn them before making such a heated post, condemning others.

[marianne]

You also said that you dont know the facts. Perhaps you should learn them before making such a heated post, condemning others.

What I ment by that is that I don't want to get into this whole discussion seeing as I don't know things as excact numbers of deaths and so forth, as it seems like alot of other people posting here does. So, you misunderstood that.

And also by most of the rest you said.. are you being serious? Talk about twisting the truth, you twisted everything I said. It's all so far from what I ment, I can't believe you actually think that's what I was trying to say.

Don't start with me posting a heated post either, the only reason I bothered to post was because I got annoyed. I never tried to hide it, why should I?


I just read more or less through this whole thread and please, Heather, I don't think even once anyone has said anything bad about the soldiers down there. There has been questioning of reasons, politics and similar.. But no-one has made even one slightly negative comment about the soldiers down there. So stop complaining that everyone is.


You try telling that to the soldiers. They see the same news we do, and are disgusted by it. You say you're criticizing the war, and not the soldiers. Well, this war is their job. And they see it as a criticism on them.

As for our complaining, we're just voicing the opinions of our soldiers who arent here to post themselves. Stephen voiced his own opinion some months ago....read it. We have every right to voice what they cant, because they dont have the opportunity, so dont try and take that right away from us. They're our loved ones, and if we want to be their voice, thats our right.

Once again, not what I ment, not even close. What I ment is that no one in this thread has made one negative comment about the soldiers. If anything, they have all said they respect them for what they are doing. I'm not talking about the news or anything else, I'm talking about this thread. If I wasn't, I wouldn't have adressed you. I'm not trying to take away your right to be their voice. Then again, I probably should if you think I actually can. I mean, I don't think you can actually say you can talk for everyone down there. Not everyone will have the same opinions. They have the rights to speak for themselves. You have the right to speak for you.

And I'm not criticizing the soldiers just because I'm criticizing the war. That's what I'm trying so hard to get for you to understand. Noone here wants to say a bad word about the soldiers, or so I would presume. It's just that not everyone thinks this war was the best idea, now you don't try to take away our right to do that by making us feel guilty about the soldiers that are down there fighting. They are two seperate things.



Second, I don't know who said it but it was what made me have to post here.. Someone said something about us "non-us countries should be happy the soldiers are down there or we would be taken over and have to learn arabic?". Are you being serious?!


Yes, we are dead serious. This fight that these terrorists wage isnt just against American, but against all westernized nations. Madrid, London...ring a bell? And if you think that living in Norway will keep you safe, you are sorely mistaken. Do your research.

Once again, you misunderstood completely what I said. All I ment is that it's completely stupid to say something like that. Just because the US might not have gone to war to get Saddam Hussein doesn't mean they would have total world domination. It's a bunch of what if's and holds no facts at all. To state something like that is just nonsense. Also, what research excactly should I do?

And yes, I remember London. I was there when it happened. So don't even try to go there.


Quote:
I get so worked up by the way alot of you make your points. Everything isn't black and white. How can you say "those people are a killed or get killed kind of people"? If there are both, as someone said, both christians and arabic down there.. wouldn't that mean that maybe not ALL OF THEM are
EXCACTLY the same? You would say it's soo obvious that Bush and his father aren't EXCACTLY the same, how could anyone make such a stupid statement right? Altough, it's okay for you to cut a whole country over the same knife? Why?


First of all...yes, they're mentality is death to the end. Whether it be ours, or theirs. This doesnt extend to Christians, or the true Muslims who follow the law of Allah. This is for the terrorists, who were safeguarded in Iraq, and who have since come into that other country from other nations, in order to kill. They kill innocent Muslims. They kill innocent Christians. Should we just walk away and let them do so? No, we shouldnt, and we cant.

Wow, once again you did it. Not what I ment at all.
Yes, what you posted now is probably true. I don't mind such a statement. Thing is, that's not what you said before. You claimed that all the people down there were a kill or get killed kind of people. Now if you changed your mind about that, as it seems, good to know.

Yes, Heather, of course I ment that we should let the terrorist kill innocent muslims and christians. Are you serious?! Do you honestly believe that was what I was trying to say about that? Of course it was not.

Quote:
have to point out something that's probably gonna make some people really mad, but who saw Fahrenheit 9/11? Why are we all denying the facts shown in that movie? Why can't we accept that that's the theory that makes the most sense? Why are alot of you so caught up in being inside your little box that you can't even look out the window and accept the fact that MAYBE not EVERYTHING Bush does is perfect?


Because anyone who knows anyone about what is going on there, or what led us to invade, knows that movie is pure lies. Its not a documentary. Liberals will tell you that. Michael Moore twisted facts to support his political agenda. If it were an ACTUAL truth based documentary, it would have been discussed, but its not.

Farheneit 9/11 not a discussed movie? Wow.. and you told me to do some research..

Its a fact. They did volunteer. I know a lot of people who have. Does that mean that i worry for them less, or that if my brother died, I would be nonchalant and say, 'Well, it was his choice.' Of course not.

Really? They volunteered? When did I claim I did not know that? Of course they volunteered! Everyone is aware that you have to volunteere! What I said is that not everyone does it because of the cause. Some do it because of the money. That was what I ment.

When did I ever mention anything about you being nonchalant about your brothers death? I didn't.

But the soldiers down there know what they are doing, and believe in it. If you dont, thats your perrogative. But then you cant say that your issue isnt with the soldiers who support Bush, and are happy to take a stand. My brother is actually UPSET that hes NOT going to Afghanistan. Me, Im ecstatic. Him...he loves the Middle East, and its people, and wants to go help and protect them. So, like you said...dont even go there.

Once again, you know one soldier down there. Maybe a few more, but you don't even know 1/20 of them. You can't speak on their behalf. Really.

My issue isn't with the soldiers at all. No one has an issue with the soldiers in this thread, at least such an opinion has not been voiced so far. For the last time, hopefully, stop making comments that anyone has a problem with the soldiers when no one has so far said one bad word about them!
If I say my issue isn't with the soldiers that support Bush, then it isn't. I'm sorry, but you can't change that.
Also, I don't have a problem with anyone. I am discussing and voicing my opinion about the war in Iraq. All that is to it is that I don't agree with the people that don't share my opinions. Now if a soldier, much like your brother, supports Bush then no, I don't agree with him. That doesn't mean I have a problem with him or him specially because he's a soldier.

Please, stop making it appear that anyone has a problem with the soldiers. I don't know how many times I have to say it. Hopefully this will be the last.

Also, your post was really pissy. You should seriously calm down. I have several family members, plus friends, in the midst of a war zone. Do you see me getting all angry and pissy just because you dont agree with my (or their) views.

The reason I got mad was because you are putting words in everyone's mouths. Making it appear that everyone says things they didn't and you never really answer the hard questions. And no, of course, not just you. I don't care if you or anyone else don't share my excact opinion.

Also, I should probably also say that I have gotten alot of PM's and rep's from people thanking me for my last post. Thank you for those and I thought I should say it because then, obviously, alot of people share my view on this.

[Jon]

A lot of thanks and reps? I highly doubt that. Anyways, I honestly don't believe you know what is going on over there in Iraq. Heather knows more about what's going on than any of us know or will ever comprehend.

Now about the hard questions, you have made a mistake. Heather is the one who ALWAYS asks the hard questions, and it's liberals like yourself that tend to dodge them.

I'm sorry but when it comes to Iraq, Heather has always been a hard-hitting straight-shooter. She says it like it is. If there's a problem, she'll say it.

[Kari]

A lot of thanks and reps? I highly doubt that.I don't understand this comment, sorry. I don't want to get in this debate at the moment, but I doubt she would make that up...I gave her rep.

[marianne]

Anyways, I honestly don't believe you know what is going on over there in Iraq. Heather knows more about what's going on than any of us know or will ever comprehend.

Because she knows someone down there? Because if you that's the case, I have a friend down there, as I said earlier. I might not talk about it as much as she does about her brother, but yeah.

And as I have posted in every post, no, I don't know excactly what is going on down in Iraq, and I never claimed I did. What I know is that I don't agree with the cause and that I react to the way alot of people in this thread made their points. This thread is called "blood for oil blood for oil blood for oil!!!", it seems like a place appropriate to discuss the cause of the war in the first place, wich is something I do know something about.

I don't really understand how you can say that I don't know what is going on down there anyways? I just don't understand what you are basing that statement on.

Originally Posted by Jon
A lot of thanks and reps? I highly doubt that.

I don't understand this comment, sorry. I don't want to get in this debate at the moment, but I doubt she would make that up...

Of course I would not make such a thing up. What would the point of that be? Just silly.

[Heather]

FYI, my brother isnt the only person I know, who tells me whats going on down there. My cousin is in weapons ordinance disposal (which means bomb squad), and I also have several friends I in multiple branches. So, dont assume my opinion on this comes from a single person. I just choose to quote the one closest to me, which is my perrogative.

[Quinton]

I believe she covered that.

Once again, you know one soldier down there. Maybe a few more, but you don't even know 1/20 of them. You can't speak on their behalf. Really.
Just for the record, I personally have absolutely no issue with any soldiers anywhere in the world. Go get em cowboys :)

[Noah]

A lot of thanks and reps? I highly doubt that. Anyways, I honestly don't believe you know what is going on over there in Iraq. Heather knows more about what's going on than any of us know or will ever comprehend.

Now about the hard questions, you have made a mistake. Heather is the one who ALWAYS asks the hard questions, and it's liberals like yourself that tend to dodge them.

I'm sorry but when it comes to Iraq, Heather has always been a hard-hitting straight-shooter. She says it like it is. If there's a problem, she'll say it.


Your love-fest towards Heather is just... wow. I dunno, dude.

And the HARD questions.... are you SERIOUS?!?! I'm right friggin' here. I'll ask the hard questions and if YOU have any hard questions for us tree-huggin' pot-headed, moronic, America-hating liberals then PLEASE by all means, ask away. I'll be MORE than happy to answer them.

oh, yeah.. and put me in the camp that gave her the positive reps for that post.


There have actually been MORE than a few documentaries on the Bush administration, 9/11, Bush foreign policy, the governments of IRaq, Iran, Palestine blah blah blah.... You just have to actually get out there and look for them. Go beyond the realm of mainstream journalism and major media backed films. They're out there, you just gotta look.

Michael Moore's film is sattire and it is entertainment. That doesn't make many of the events portrayed in the film made up, or untrue. Did Michael Moore REALLY stand in Washington and ask members of Congress to sign up their own kids to go to Iraq?? Or maybe that was just some of that movie magic, eh?!? Those Congressmen looked at Michael like he was out of his mind and immediately took off. I found it quite comical at the reactions he got and when he asked Congressmen WHY their own kids weren't enlisted and how they just stood, dumbfounded, fumbling for words.

You want to talk about HARD questions, chief?!? How about this one which I have asked before but have received NO answer to:

Taking into consideration that the Bush administration has vacated their claims that Saddam had ties to 9/11, that Saddam had WMD's or plans to develope WMD's and that there is no evidence that there were terrorist strongholds in Iraq, nor that the Iraqi government was funding such operations... oh, and if you'd like me to dig up the video clips of Condy RIce and Colin Powell stating that Iraq did not posess, nor had the capacity to develope WMD's, I will. I think they're posted in this thread, or at least this forum, somewhere. These clips were from BEFORE the Bush administration advanced plan to occupy Iraq.

Taking all of that into considerations, the claim is now that it was our humanitarian duty to invade Iraq to free the Iraqi people. Now, the question:

How is an Iraqi occupation justifiable while the Bush administration still supports the government of Uzbekistan and its president Islam Karimov who wields absolute power over his country and have declared himself dictator, while this nation holds thousands political prisoners, uses torture techniques such as bioling people alive, and the Uzbek military opens fire on protestors, killing nearly 1,000 of them, burying them in large graves and then attempting to cover it up??


How about this one?? How can the Bush administration just be given complete, and blind support when there is a mountain of evidence which displays the hypocrisy of this administration?? When such documents as the Downing Street Memo are published, spelling out, in black and white, the Bush administrations plan to "sell" the Iraq war to the press and the American people and their plan to "fix" the intelligence around their plan to invade Iraq- how can such facts be ignored??

Oh, by the way, none of these stories, nor the Downing Street Memo, were covered by the mainstream media, so you can't give me that old crap about "the evil LIBERAL media".


So, I just "said it like it is". Feel free to chime in with your answers anytime, Jon.

[Faith]

I won't get involved because I'm not educated enough on the subject to do so, but

it's liberals like yourself that tend to dodge them

is prejudice... you might as well be racist or homophobic if you are going to make that kind of a judgement about someone for the party they follow... that creates tension, dude :)

[Heather]

First of all,

Noah - when have I ever not answered one of your questions?

Gem - The attitude I was given by responding to Marianne's post was just as biased and even more mean spirited. Why dont you comment on that as well? You were the one that started a thread about people being attacked for political beliefs. Why dont you comment on how I was just attacked for mine?

[Faith]

Heather, I have not read that post, sweetheart :)

Just this page :poke:

The same stands, and if you link me I will gladly say so. I apologise if you took that as a personal attack but I felt I was standing for FB's moral values :)

I think that anyone making negative spiteful comments should take some time to reflect, but I do believe what Jon said was as bad as racism. You can't judge a social group on their beliefs and label them for it :)

:hippy: That's why I wasn't going to post, you can't even post standing up for equality and moral rights without people thinking its a personal attack.

[Heather]

I disnt think you were attacking me, Jon. Its just that alot of what she posted was offensive to me, and a personal attack. Jon was defending me, so I just dont think he should be criticized for that.

And Noah, all of that has already been covered in the past. If not in here, then in other threads. Why do we have to keep reiterating the same things over and over again? It doesnt accomplish anything.

[Faith]

Yes but Heather, the context doesn't matter, does it? :)

He was prejudice against a whole group of people, tarring them as one... I didn't think that was acceptable at FanBolt, but I'll keep my big conk out, lol :lol:

[Noah]

Actually, no- that was the whole point of me posting. Those topics have NOT been dealt with. Yes, I have brought them up in the past, but the topics themselves were never addressed. I was simply asking the hard questions that Jon mentioned; questions that have yet to be answered, and that I believe are completely relevant to this discussion.

[Faith]

Can't we all just debate, not argue?

That's one of the reasons I left... I love debates, but here people can become plain nasty sometimes, you know? Let's get back on track, no more accusations of people being liars, no more prejudice, just people discussing things in a way that is adult enough to actually make a difference? :) Some people are too scared to post incase what they say is turned against :poke:

:hippy: please don't turn against me for peace making ;) don't make me start singing 'kumbyaaaaa'

[Kari]

How is an Iraqi occupation justifiable while the Bush administration still supports the government of Uzbekistan and its president Islam Karimov who wields absolute power over his country and have declared himself dictator, while this nation holds thousands political prisoners, uses torture techniques such as bioling people alive, and the Uzbek military opens fire on protestors, killing nearly 1,000 of them, burying them in large graves and then attempting to cover it up??This reminded me of something I re-searched and wrote yesterday but didn't dare to post then...I do now.

Saddam must be removed from power?…maybe he shouldn’t have been supported on his way to power in the first place and he also shouldn’t have been sold those mass destruction weapons that turned out to be reason for a war (after they were destroyed).
Then what about Pakistan? No democracy, religious groups being persecuted and killed. But there might be some terrorists hiding there so it’s okay to bond with the government?
Mass killings against Muslims in India, but they are in the anti-terror coalition, so it’s okay?
In Indonesia the native people are killed by militaries, human rights are offended every day, but America still suggested military co-work in 2002.
There are and have been so many dictatorships and as a reason for this war it’s put that Saddam is an evil dictator. I know, now I sound like I want to make him sound more harmless. No, I don’t want to. I am not trying to say that the man who caused genocides should be the leader of a country (neither should the guys in Pakistan, India and Indonesia).

[Quinton]

Noah has a point. Anybody going to answer his (and marianne's) questions?

[Faith]

I want to debate but I get so lost :)

What is the main argument here?

In one line, lol :lol:

[Quinton]

in one line?

blood for oil, blood for oil, blood for oil!!! [or] blood for peace, blood for peace, blood for peace???

[Faith]

Wow

Thanks Kiwi...

That really cleared that up :lol:

[Heather]

I already answered Marianne's questions...and she turned my words around and went on the offensive, so I choose not to respond to her further attacks.

As for Noahs comments, if you had been in this forum from the begginning, you would know that I have already answered those questions not once, but TWICE, I really dont see the need to get into it for a third time. It doesnt serve any purpose at this point. Its just rehashing old arguments, that should be dead and buried. We dont agree, we'll never agree. So, I prefer to agree to disagree as opposed to reiterating things for the third time.

As for Marianne's love of the military. Question. If you have so much respect for them, why is it that you have never posted in the Military Appreciation Thread? Why is it that the only non conservatives I can think of who have posted in there are Webeh, Kaylan, and oclover24 ? If you really support them, why dont you show that you do? And speak out about your appreciation for our soldiers?

[Faith]

It's perfectly possible to support the soldiers and not the war :hippy:

And there are a million ways of showing your support, aren't there? Maybe when they aren't posting in a thread for them, (which I haven't,) they are praying for them, (which I have.)

So why will noone explain both sides to me? :)

[Kari]

why is it that you have never posted in the Military Appreciation Thread?Maybe, and that is just as guess, because that will only turn out in the question how we can support the soldiers while being against the war.

[marianne]

I already answered Marianne's questions...and she turned my words around and went on the offensive, so I choose not to respond to her further attacks.

You did not answer my questions and I did not go on the offensive. I was stating my case, wich is what one should do in a debate/discussion.

As for Marianne's love of the military. Question. If you have so much respect for them, why is it that you have never posted in the Military Appreciation Thread? Why is it that the only non conservatives I can think of who have posted in there are Webeh, Kaylan, and oclover24 ? If you really support them, why dont you show that you do? And speak out about your appreciation for our soldiers?

Well, that one's easy, I've never seen or known there was an appreciation thread for the military. As simple as that. And yes, now that I know, what Kari says is probably what will keep me from posting. I'm very tired of having to defend that you can support the soldiers, but not the war.

I don't know why those are the only non-conservatives that has posted in the thread. Maybe the ones that hasn't have the same reasons as me? I don't know.

I show my support already in other ways. Maybe I'll post in the military appreciation thread sometime, I'm not sure.

[Heather]

Maybe, and that is just as guess, because that will only turn out in the question how we can support the soldiers while being against the war.
Actually, thats not the case. Because that thread isnt about the war, its about our soldiers.

[Noah]

dude... you just aksed if I had been in this thread from the beginning. I'm the jackass who started the bloody thing.

You never answered the questions that I asked. If you had, you, or someone else could point me to these asnwers in the form of a link perhaps. I'm a lazy hippie... I can't be arsed around to go and LOOK for these "answers". If they had been provided, I assume I would have read them in response to when I asked them initially.

Very big reason why I am so nonexistent in this forum is these reasons that Marianne brings up. When I post, the conservatives, or Clinton haters, or republicans or whatever any of them refer to themselves as, read what I say... decide what THEY THINK I meant, and then go on some anti liberal/commie/socialist tirade.

I ask, what I believe, are some fairly reasonable, level-headed questions. I'm not one of those psycho SHeehan PETA whacko crazies out there just talking nonsense. I'm not some ultra leftist whack job. The crap that comes out of my mouth, I think, is pretty damn reasonable. I'm not a democrat, and I'm not anti-republican. I just look at the hypocrisy and recklessness of this administration and choose to ask questions.

So, that makes me an America hater, a terrorist sympathiser, and AGAINST Americans who have sacrificed to serve this country.

My ole buddy Jefferson said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Well, dammit, I don't give a sack WHO is in the white house.... I'll be asking questions. People didn't give their lives so I could sit back like a lazy bum and NOT question my government and its decisions. It is every Americans duty to demand fairness from the Government and it is the Governments job to act in the best interest of its people.

With ALL the controversy surrounding this administration... the failures, the lies, the deception, the cronyism.... how can one NOT at the very LEAST ask some questions?!

Dick Cheney's Halliburton stock options, worth $241,498 a year ago, are now valued at over 8$ million. That's a 3,281% gain. Honestly, how does that not create the SLIGHTEST, tiniest little bit of doubt about this administration and its motives. Cheney, however, did pledge to give the stock to charity- yep. But doesn't it just make you wonder??

It's unfortuante. Anyone who criticises Bush or his administration is just so COMPLETELY and TOATALLY out of line that it's just simply an outrage. For some reason these people can do absolutely NOTHING wrong, and anyone who questions them is some sort of pond scum treasonist.

The Bush family's ties to the oil industry, the fact that Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton.. blah blah blah... you know the rest... with all of this evidence, for one to even assume that our motives have ANYTHING to do with oil is just some whacky, way out there conspiracy theory. How?! Can you blame people for asking?? Does it not AT ALL seem the LEAST littble bit, I dunno.... weird? convenient? a little bit off?

I guess it's just us crazy liberal types. listenin' to that rock music and doing the grass. talkin' bout peace and love and all that nonsense.



Actually, thats not the case. Because that thread isnt about the war, its about our soldiers.

GREAT point!! dude, you got it!! Our criticism of this war ISN'T about the soldiers. It's about the policy makers and those who are responsible for SENDING the soldiers to war. Right on!

[Heather]

First of all, I said FORUM, not thread. Because, Noah, you have posted those questions in other threads. If you really want them that badly, I will search for the posts later, because I dont have the time to do it right now. But I know that I have responded to those questions at least twice before. Which is why I dont want to reiterate it a third time. Whats the point, really? We're never going to agree, and it will just keep going back and forth with no resolution.

As for Marianne's "innocence". Are you even attempting to pretend that you dont take what us Conservative say and misinterpert it? Come on. One person reads something and takes it one way, the next person takes it in a completely different way. I know things I have said have been twisted around more than once. Does that keep me from posting? No, it doesnt. Because as frustrating as I find it, Im not about to let someone silence me. Which...btw...you just did that in your quote of mine about the military appreciation thread.

Also, Im probably the last person on the net that you should be quoting Jefferson to, dude. I REVERE him. Everytime Im in Washington, guess what my first stop is. Thats right...the Jefferson Memorial. Because I have the utmost respect and admiration for that man, what he stood for, and what he left behind for all of us. So dont use Jefferson as a reason to malign the current administration. That just doesnt fly.

[Noah]

no, no.. I was quoting Jefferson because it makes me feel better about myself that I can quote famous dead dudes.. it makes me feel superior and smart and stuff when I can be all like... Jefferson said this and Einstein said that. It shows off my incredible skill at using google.

I can't really read tho.. I thought it said thread, I think. I'm a pretty literal guy and stuff, so I don't make crazy assumptions about things. I'm just like "man, wait a minute... I didn't say that the American troops are murderers and should burn in hell... did I?? All I said was that I think George Bush is a wanker".

Man, if I revered Jefferson I'd be demanding answers and questioning these cats too. I wouldn't stand for this mess. But, I dunno.


If Saddam Hussein was seeking world domination and was threatening my life or my country or the lives of the people in my country I'd be all about whooping up on him. Well, I'd first prefer a peaceful solution, but then I'd be all about beating him down. That wasn't the case tho. Saddam was just some douchebag down in Iraq who turned out to be a pretty bad dude... I just think that it is this governments primary duty to act in the best interest of this country and its citizens. Like with regards to securing our borders, providing jobs, healthcare, education... Instead we foolishly and unpreparedly enter a conflict in Iraq, stretching our military so thin that we don't even have the resources to deal with our own disasters and crises here at home. Believe me, there are enough things going wrong and enough crap that needs to be done here at home to keep this administration busy for a WHILE.

[Heather]

As for Noahs comments, if you had been in this forum from the begginning, you would know that I have already answered those questions not once, but TWICE, I really dont see the need to get into it for a third time.
I said forum...and btw, that wasnt directed at you, but at Quinton.

I just think that it is this governments primary duty to act in the best interest of this country and its citizens. Like with regards to securing our borders, providing jobs, healthcare, education... Instead we foolishly and unpreparedly enter a conflict in Iraq, stretching our military so thin that we don't even have the resources to deal with our own disasters and crises here at home. Believe me, there are enough things going wrong and enough crap that needs to be done here at home to keep this administration busy for a WHILE.
I agree. I even said as much in another thread. Then it was pointed out to me that we are no longer isolationist, and havent been in nearly a century. And thats true. We arent. So as much as I would love for us to say, "deal with your own problems" to the rest of the world, we simply dont have that option anymore.

You dont believe Saddam was a threat to the US, alright. Thats your perrogative. But not everyone feels the same way that you do. Otherwise Bush wouldnt have won by such a large margin in the last election. And your own state wouldnt have elected him by the biggest percentage for any President in history. But they did.

I dont believe that Saddam wasnt a threat. I believe that he moved those weapons before we invaded. I believe that if he was allowed to reign in Iraq, the results would have been disastrous not only for the US, but for the Western World. And those beliefs wont change just because you dont agree with them.

And I do revere Jefferson. He is my idol, if you must know. And the way you turn to him and his words now, is what I did during the Clinton years for both solace, and encouragement.

If pride of character be of worth at any time, it is when it disarms the efforts of malice.

I think if he were alive today, TJ would agree with the stance that GWB took.

[Faith]

It's funny how y'all are eager to argue, but noone will give me a simple explanation about what you are all arguing about... except Quinton, but I chose to ignore him :lol:

[Heather]

Gem, the reason Im not going into it again, is really just pure exhaustion. I just get tired of rehashing the same thing time after time after time. You get to a point where you just say, "Whats the point, really?"

[Faith]

I'm not asking for arguments from either side :)

I'm asking from an unbiased overview of what you are all talking about :)

[Noah]

This is just a little hard for me to grasp. In Clinton's second term the whole Monica scandal broke and that was horrible and people flipped all out and everything, yeah. But, what is this whole... during those HORRIBLE, GOD AWFUL Clinton years that I keep hearing... I just don't remember the overall feeling in this country that the world was going to come to an end or anything.

People still talk about the Clinton years as if it was the overall low point of western civilisation- like the almost demise of the United States. Bush has gone leaps and LEAPS and bounds over what Clinton every did with regards to diminishing this country's reputation abroad, the overall feeling at home, unemployment, putting us into debt etc. etc. You can ask Emma, we were just talking about this the other day when we were driving around; There are homeless people EVERYWHERE now where we live. They are walking the streets, hitchiking, asking for money and they are everywhere now. I guess, perhaps, they just now decided to come out of hiding and layed low during the Clinton years or something, but I think there is a reason for this. NO JOBS. There are no damn jobs to be found anywhere. You know how long I actually waited to finally get hired for the job I have now?? Nine months. Nine damn months.

You can't give some "well, that is your opinion" crap about the fact that there simply are no jobs to be had in this country. The fact that people can't find work, and millions more people are living under the poverty line is a whole friggin shitload more of a problem for this country than whatever the hell bug Saddam had up his colon.

It's my friggin' perrogative to believe that Saddam isn't a threat?! People can go out and believe whatever the hell they want to believe. But, when something is a fact, it doesn't matter how it's spun or how hard and loud it's said you can't change that fact. We can go out and yell and scream about founding fathers and "freedom ain't free!" 'til we're all blue in the face, it doesn't make this administration's choice to enter Iraq a good one.

This is just such an unbelievable joke and a disgrace. There are no ****ing jobs. People are living in poverty. I hate that the holidays are coming up and so many MORE people aren't going to have ANYTHING. I don't give a God damn about the Bush crime family and their ties to the Saddam reign and their ties to the Saudis and all that crap and Halliburton and whatever else all those rich assholes feel like doing today. Jesus Christ, people dont even have enough food to eat, but the REAL problem with this country is gay marriage?!?- that's going to be the downfall of American society as we know it?! What a pathetic joke and a slap in the face to the American people. What matters is the people in this country who want to work, and the fact that the richest nation in the entire world can't even care for its own. So, essentially, Bush & Co. can kiss my ass and I can't wait 'til their reign is finally over and we can look back on this as a mistake and a dark time in our country's history.



I'll jsut say meh...,,.

[marianne]

"What's More Important?"

Mr. Moore,

My name is Joe and I am an active duty U.S. Marine. Next Monday I will depart on my THIRD trip to Iraq and let me tell you, I'm so very excited to go do my part for a Democratic Iraq...

We all understand the possibility of 'war' when we join the military, especially the Marines, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with the reasoning behind it. I could go on and on right now about the reasons why I think this 'War On Terror' is crap, Ill refrain from beating the dead horse. The problem I'm having right now is that instead of going to Iraq to fight the lost cause, I would so much rather spend my blood, sweat, and tears by volunteering my time in Louisiana or Mississippi and actually make a difference... a REAL difference.

Instead I have to go to Iraq and 'fight for freedom' and 'defend my nation'... 'Defend my nation from what?' is the question I posed to my senior leadership just this past week, only to be glared at. My hats off to those aiding the sick and dying in New Orleans and the other regions affected by Katrina.

Keep doing the great things you're doing for the country Mr. Moore. Thank you!

Respectfully,

Joe C.



"If you want to impress me, go to Baghdad."

Dear Michael Moore:

I must say that you are always on point. I am a soldier serving in Iraq and till this day we still don’t know why we are here.

I sit and watch television and the bull shit that our leaders are feeding to the people on a daily basis. How can you be a President and spend over 800 billions of dollars destroying and rebuilding another country when we need help in our own country? How do you live with yourself knowing that innocent soldiers are dying every day just for you?

Majority of the troops here don’t even have missions, all they do is check people identification cards going into the PX or Hajji Bazaars or cooks working in airports or laundry room because they have civilian caterers to work in the dinning facilities. We are separated from our family, kids, husbands, wives and friends for a year just for the white house to look good. So our leaders can say “Yes we were the ones that destroyed and rebuild this country spending over 800 billions of dollars and we have veterans that have served their country, lost their legs, arms and their lives to be homeless, eating in shelters and no one gives a dam.

But what’s really gets under my skin is that we are over here fighting for $250.00 extra on our pay check for hazard pay or 225 dollars extra for being away from your families and you pay athletes, entertainers and singers billions of dollars to perform. If it was not for people like us that provide that freedom and give up our lives for that freedom that why are we paid so much less to be in harms way?

Oh yeah, I forgot they raised the life insurance from 250,000 to 400,000 when I die that will really benefit me a lot.

Mr. Bush, why are you wondering why people are getting out of the military regardless of the bonus money that you are throwing their way and why are you forcing soldiers to stay in the army past their time without any say so? I prefer Clinton any day, true he was getting his freak on in the White House, but who hasn’t and if they said they didn’t they would be lying.

This is the worst leadership in the history of leading and to get on national television telling lies about “They are doing so much over here” is pathetic. How would you know if you only visit places that are not in any type of danger? What is going on in Kuwait? Nothing. If you want to impress me, go to Baghdad where there is suicide bombings everyday where soldiers are dying. Not where you can give a concert and feel good about yourself? You should have known that if you and your brother manipulate the voting system that will stop you from doing the same to the world.

To be honest a lot of military personnel do not have any thing good to say about this Commander in Chief, he has proven to the world that he is truly the biggest fraud that the world has seen.



"Marching in Fort Bragg"

Hey Mike!

I wanted to write you and let you know that the people who will be marching in this upcoming anniversary of the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq will not only be activists and family members of lost loved ones. I am a soldier in the United States Army and will be there too! I have felt strongly that there is a message that has not been heard everywhere in the United States and feel that saying it in the streets is the only way to get attention. I get a lot of shit from my colleagues and we get into fights about this issue all of the time. I support those that are fighting, I simply and wholeheartedly DO NOT believe in what they are fighting for…but more in importantly, WHO they are fighting for. The evil man that sent them there. The corrupt man who has not attended a single funeral for one single soldier. The man who accepts the deaths as tragic but necessary so that we can live in peace. Mike, I am embarrassed to serve under this man. I signed up for the G.I. Bill like thousands of others, and feel that I stand out now in a bad way for ever joining.

I attended the opening night of Fahrenheit 9/11 in the only place in Fayetteville that would show the film. The Cameo Art House theater. I went in amid protests and felt proud for standing up for what I thought needed to be heard. I traveled to the Republican National Convention to protest not only him, but the organization that backs him! I attended the inauguration of George Bush in protest. I took a week of leave in order to stand there in the cold and protest a man that has led this country into a corner that we might not be able to fight our way out of. I again traveled north to protest the nomination of Alberto Gonzalez and Condi Rice. I believe that even though you lose the battles, the fact that one more person became aware of the situation justifies the expenses and travel I incurred to make these trips. Now, on the up-coming eve of the war in Iraq, as a soldier who has been to both Afghanistan and Iraq, I will protest not the organization that employs me, but the Commander in Chief. The man who, on a mission from God, is able to send so many men and women to their deaths and have the audacity to feel that no explanation is necessary. No apologies. No regrets! I will stand with the other thousands of men and women and let my voice be known. I may be a member of the Armed Forces…but I DO NOT support this war! Thanks for the great things you do for the Military Mike. Thanks for the voice that you have given so many!

With deepest sincerity,
Spencer E. Steckman
ACofS, G2 IMO
Fort Bragg, NC

I just read this at michaelmoore.com and thought I should post it here as I think it is relevant. The letters are written by soldiers that is, or has been, down in Iraq, to Michael Moore.

[Heather]

Call me a skeptic, but I think that Michael Moore is the best source of honesty on this war. (BTW...the first letter proves this for me, when talking about the extra money. Soldiers are given several thousand dollars in hazard pay for going down there. FACT. I know a Specialist who got $2000 extra dollars in pay for going down there). So, yeah, I dont see Michael Moore is a paragon of honesty.

Posted by Webeh (a liberal)
In film class his name came up when we were learning about documentaries. There's a type of documentaries where facts are moulded to suit the film-makers' arguments. Michael Moore films were examples of that. He just flat out lies in them. They're not necessarily bad films (I haven't seen any of his works and not going to), just not true.

[marianne]

Those letters aren't about Michael Moore, nor are they written by him either. They are written by soldiers, to him. Wether or not Michael Moore is a reliable source or not, that has got nothing to do with what the letters say.

[Heather]

My point was that I doubt that their genuine, or if they are that they are the minority. And this is not based on the opinion of what Ive heard from one soldier, btw. But the countless others that I know.

I know theres a misconception that all my information comes from a single soldier, my brother. Which, is not entirely true. I know multiple soldiers who have served in Iraq, and through them, know their friends who served with them. And everything I have heard, negates everything that these letters proclaim.

And speaking of Michael Moore....

Filmmaker Michael Moore insists that corporations are evil and claims he doesn't invest in the stock market due to moral principle.

But Moore's IRS forms, show that over the past five years he has owned shares in such corporate giants as Halliburton, Merck, Pfizer, Sunoco, Tenet Healthcare, Ford, General Electric and McDonald's.

Considering that, anything that this man posts on his website, and knowing how he distrorted facts to serve his own purpose for more than one documentary, has absolutely no credibility as far as Im concerned.

[marianne]

There's no misconception, you have stated before you know more than one soldier and it was noted. I said earlier that you don't know 1/20 of the soldiers down there. So to base what you are saying on what you have heard from them, as facts, don't fly. That's all.

I really don't think he would write fictional letters and post them on his website. He is even putting them together and publishing them in a book. Now I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure that by some law, that's not legal.

[Quinton]

In film class his name came up when we were learning about documentaries. There's a type of documentaries where facts are moulded to suit the film-makers' arguments. Michael Moore films were examples of that. He just flat out lies in them. They're not necessarily bad films (I haven't seen any of his works and not going to), just not true.They're not 'a' type of documentary, they are documentaries as a whole. Simba, the snow eating Sealion didn't eat snow, people. It's just not true.

Ok... "somebody" in the US Administration lied at least once in regard to this war. Would anyone in this ro