the "religion" thread

[*gwen*~*grover*]

so, i am not christian, have no problems with christians... so i thought id start a thread to talk about any "religious" beliefs... jewish, buddist, any weird concoction you guys may have... or christianity, :D...

im half methodist, but have never been to church, and half jewish, but rarely go to temple... im not "godless", but im really not a huge fan of any one religion... i think most of what i "believe" now came from last year when i read song of solomon, saw i heart huckabees, and then had two weeks with no one else in the city when i had a long time to mull over my life ...(all 15 years of it, haha, so i think this is all subject to change...) :lol:...
why do we have to take the bible, or the koran, or any scriptures literally? i was thinking about the idea of balance, and fitting all the religions together... im not really sure how to write this... but in my opinion, the message is whats important, and if they correspond, then where do our differences come from? an ideal of when the second coming of a prophet is, and what heaven is like? how many gods there are? i just really dont think it matters...
this really isnt meant as an attack on any one religion... its just what im thinking at the moment... so, any ideas?

[everwoodisfab]

I'm not totally sure I have grasped what you are trying to say so sorry if what I said is not relevant. I find it interesting that all religions have similar idea aswell but then all humans are similar and so it makes sense that people are going to have at least similar ideas about what is right. I also think it depends alot on what kind of culture a religion is nurtured in and that can also apply to different denominations of a single religion :) I am personally agnostic, I have no clue what's going on out there :lol:

[*gwen*~*grover*]

haha, yeah, i think it takes me awhile to figure out what im trying to say... :lol: sorry if thats unclear... i dont really know what im talking about, haha

i guess i just wanted to have a discussion on religion, (and didnt want to put it in the christianity thread...), but i guess technically im agnostic also...
i think what i was asking, is i dont get why religions are so separate if the common ideals are the same...
hmm, im not sure though :lol:, i know ill end up mulling over this tonight until i figure out what i was trying to type up, haha

[everwoodisfab]

I guess although religions share some ideas they also have alot of differences, the main ones being their beliefs about the centre of their religion- their God or Gods.

[Faith]

Is the essence of this thread one to discuss other religions except for Christianity? :)

[Heather]

Im not sure, Gem...which is why I havent closed it. :lol:

Although we do have a Christian thread, we talk about all religious topics in there. So. I dont know...couldnt that just be discussed in there?

[Ashlyn]

Well... I don't know about that.

It's not really fair to the Christians to be discussing say... Satanism in there.

[Heather]

Okay,...

First of all, its called the Christian thread, because thats what it was called in the Tabloids, before this forum was even started. But in that thread, we have accepted all denominations, even non-Christian ones, and had thoughtful, intellectual discussions about all forms of religion in there.

Second, are you a closet Satanist or something? Everytime the subject of religion comes up, you bring up satanism? Why? What does it have to do with Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Agnosticism, Atheism?

It had nothinthing to do with them. So why keep bringing it up? Unless its your only argument...and a pretty bad argument, I must say.

Lets see...people who are confused about religion...people who worship the same god, but give him different names, v. the antithesis of all that those gods...the gods of both monotheism and polytheism stand for.

So, I ask you again, why the constant references to satanism? If its an "including the masses thing". I'll stop you right there. Atheists are a minority in this nation, and even THEY outnumber the satanists.

So, Ashlyn, why do you constantly bring up Satanism whenever you get the chance?

[Ashlyn]

Okay.. WHOA.

That wasn't an attack, it was just a reason why it would be unfair to the christians for such religions to be discussed.

Second of all, IF i was a Satanist, that'd be just fine.

Third of all, I bring it up because it is the opposite of Christianity, and therefore something you guys probably wouldn't want to be discussed in there. Just an example. If a Satanist member joined, and all religion dicussion is limited to the Christian thread, you guys probably wouldn't be to happy.

If you want us to talk about whatever in the Christian thread, that's fine, but I thought it was you guys's safe haven. Sorry.

Wow... EVERYTHING turns into an argument here somehow.

I DIDNT meant that as one.

[Heather]

Okay, fine.

But show me a member at FB who is a Satanist, and I would say you had a valid point.

Satanist members of FB, raise your hand!

Satanism aside (and why you continue to bring that up, still baffles me), every one else, who is non-Christian, and a member here, is free to post in there. Atheist, Jew, Muslim, Agnostic...we dont discriminate.

If you have something to say about religion, it was always vocalized in that thread. Its just that Christians happen to be the most vocal members.

[HappyHamster]

I think I prefer a seperate thread for discussing different religions, agnosticism or even atheism. I just don't feel comfortable discussing what I believe in the Christian thread (or in my case not believe) because the thread is very focused on discussing Bible passages and such. And that's fine, it's just not for me. And I kinda agree with Ashlyn, I also thought the Christian thread was a sort of safe haven for Christians to discuss their beliefs.

In response to Sam's (is it Sam? I know it's not Gwen but I'm confused now :bgrin: ) first post, I understand where you were trying to go with your reasoning. If you look at the different religions there are a great many of similarities which especially have to do with the idea of doing good and not harming others.

I'm an atheist myself. I don't believe in God. I suppose I should be agnostic because there's no actual way to disprove he exists , but I really don't believe so I think I'm an atheist. Unless I'm getting certain terms mixed up now.

I have always said that it must feel good to be able to believe. To have such faith in something that can neither be proved or disproved. I could say there are circumstances in my life that have made it unable for me to believe in a God but that would be a lie. These circumstances have reaffirmed my views as an atheist but in truth I have never once in my entire life believed. Of course this would also largely have to do with the fact that my parents weren't religious either, although my mum does talk about my dad as still being around in some way. I don't know what happens after death but I'm pretty sure I'll find out eventually. :lol:

[Faith]

Wooo! :lol:

Okay, I think Ashlyn was just using Satanism as an extreme example, and Nat is right. There should either be a seperate thread, or the Christian Thread should be renamed the 'religion' thread, because you know, it's not fair to just 'let' other religions talk in that thread. It should be for everyone :)

[*gwen*~*grover*]

yeah, sorry if this is pointless, but ^^, yeah, i didnt really want to debate "against" christinaity in the christian thread, it just seemed kind of like a one sided argument :lol:

and thanks Nat, (haha, its sam, or sammy, so yeah :D ), haha, im just told i have to go buy a christmas tree (the irony, huh? :lol: ), so ill be back to explain myself... :D

[Ashlyn]

Don't worry, it's DEFINATELY not a pointless thread, my friend.

Here's a religion worth discussing.. The Children Of God.

They encourage children to have sex, Joaquin and River Phoenix were raised in it when they were young, and River said he lost his virginity at age 4.

Now... this brings up an interesting little point, Freedom of Religion vs. Child Abuse.

Should parents be allowed to raise their children in such a religon?

.. isn't that their right?

... but is it unfair to the kid?

[*gwen*~*grover*]

wait, wow, what?!?! :lol: im not sure if i understood you, but do people consider child abuse a religion, is it in a religion....? freedom of religion until it physically harms someone...

as to the children of god... thats just kind of creepy, haha... what is the basis of that faith? pleasure from a young age or something...?

******
so, i was wondering, and this is for anyone, ...where do religions differ, and why is that important? ... what made you determine which faith to follow, or why to stay with that one?

[Krazy]

"The Children Of God" I didn't know their was such a religion. Interesting. I think religions such as them should really be a choice made in adulthood or adolescence. I mean come on, imagine telling your friends hey i lost my virginity before i even went to school. :ebraise: I mean wouldn't it make you a outcast?let's face it's children can be cruel and i think if parents are bringing their children up to be different or misfits, that's not cool.

[Faith]

This Children of God religion, what reason do they give for having young children lose their virginity at such a terribly young age. What's the argument behind it?

[*gwen*~*grover*]

i have no clue... im gonna see if i can research that... hmmmm...

**
ok, going back to what i had asked before, still not sure if its clear... but i saw this in the christian thread (still feel funny arguing there, haha)
posted by Andrea
"But to be Hindu, etc. one must do more than simply accept that the religion has some nice things to say and tells some interesting stories. One must accept the tenets of their belief system, one must believe their answers to the questions of what the nature and purpose of humankind are, the nature of Deity, and the moral and ethical code as laid out by their religious doctrines. Ask any religious clergy of any religion if you're able to be a part of their religion without doing these things, and I guarantee that 99% of them will say no."

now, i know this is out of context to the discussion that was going on, but what bothers me about religions, is how do you know which one is "right"?

[everwoodisfab]

Don't worry, it's DEFINATELY not a pointless thread, my friend.

Here's a religion worth discussing.. The Children Of God.

They encourage children to have sex, Joaquin and River Phoenix were raised in it when they were young, and River said he lost his virginity at age 4.

Now... this brings up an interesting little point, Freedom of Religion vs. Child Abuse.

Should parents be allowed to raise their children in such a religon?

.. isn't that their right?

... but is it unfair to the kid?

woah thats shocking. I personally dont agree with that... it's a little too Brave New World for my liking

[Faith]

Taken from various internet sources I just googled, lol -

The founder of the movement was a former Christian Missionary Alliance pastor, David Brandt Berg (1919-1994), also known within the group as Moses David, Mo, Father David, and Dad to adult group members and eventually as Grandpa to the group's youngest members. Berg communicated with his followers through his more than 3,000 published letters written over 24 years, refered to as "Mo Letters" by members of the group. By January 1972 David Berg introduced through his letters that he was God's prophet for this time, further establishing his spiritual authority within the group.

Various accusations have been made in reference to the CoG being a cult -

1) 1977: A series of Mo Letters dealt with adult sexual activities between teenagers or children. In a 1977 letter called "Child Brides", he is reported as saying "I hope all our young kids have plenty of sex...Why did the Lord make you able to have children at the age of 11, 12, 13 if you weren't supposed to have sex then?"

2) Circa 1997: The Observer newspaper 5 reports that a teenage woman was recently "awarded £5,000 by the British Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, having been abused by members of the sect from the age of three." This award would be about $7,500 in US funds at the time.

3) The Family has received a great deal of criticism from counter-cult groups over its promotion of masturbation. Both male and female Family members are urged to masturbate while fantasizing about engaging in sexual activity with Jesus. David Berg is said to have written a letter which was distributed after his death. He introduced the "Loving Jesus Revelation." 2 He said "In the quietness of your chamber when you are alone, you can tell Me you love Me and you can show Me you love Me. For this is a very intimate and special way of loving Me."

4) According to xFamily.org, a number of women in Berg's family accused him of sexual abuse. Their web site states: "At least five women, including both his daughters and two of his granddaughters, have publicly alleged that Berg sexually abused them when they were children." "Berg's eldest daughter Deborah Davis has written a book in which she accuses her father of sexually molesting both her and her sister when they were children, and attempting to have sex with her as an adult. Her sister Faith Berg corroborated these claims, but described them in a positive way. In a child-custody case in the United Kingdom, Berg's granddaughter Merry Berg testified that Berg sexually molested her when she was a young teenager. Another of Berg's granddaughters, Joyanne Treadwell Berg, spoke on American television about being sexually abused by her grandfather.

1994: Berg died. The leadership of The Family apologized to children that had been harmed by the group. They were offered an opportunity "to come forth and talk to their parents, seek counseling." The family offered the services of a psychologist. According to Claire Borowik, The Family's current spokesperson, nobody requested help.

2005: Ricky Rodriguez was a son of Mo Berg and heir apparent to succeed his father. Berg prophesized that the boy would one day "deliver them out of great sorrow and bondage." Rodriguez killed Angela Smith, an older woman who may have helped to raise him. Then he committed suicide.

Just a few bits and pieces there, I'll look into it further.

[*gwen*~*grover*]

i found this:

The Children of God (COG), later known as the Family of Love, the Family, and now The Family International is a new religious movement that started in 1968 in Huntington Beach, California, USA. It was part of the Jesus Movement of the late 1960s, with many of its early converts drawn from the hippie movement. It was among the movements prompting the cult controversy of the 1970s and 1980s in the United States and Europe and triggered the first organized anticult group (FREECOG).

As it grew and expanded around the world, so did its message—salvation, Millenarianism, spiritual revolution against the outside world that they called "the System"—and resultant controversy. In 1974, it began to experiment with a method of evangelism called Flirty Fishing—using sex to show God's love and win converts and support. The practice was discontinued in 1987. Their founder and prophetic leader, David Berg, communicated with his followers via Mo Letters—letters of instruction and counsel on a myriad of spiritual and practical subjects—until his death in late 1994. After his death, his widow Karen Zerby became the leader of the Family.

The group’s liberal sexuality and its publication and distribution of writings, photographs and videos advocating and documenting adult-child sexual contact and the sexualization of children led to numerous reports of sexual contact between adults and minors. A number of judicial and academic investigations in the 1990s found the Family to be a safe environment for children, yet such investigations have also highlighted troubles in its past. Family leadership, admitting only that that some children were abused from 1978 until 1985, created policies prohibiting excessive discipline or any sexual contact between adults and minors. Those found to have abused children after December 1988 are excommunicated from Family membership. The Family requires individuals who decide to report child abuse to a law enforcement agency or pursue any other legal action against an alleged abuser to leave the group entirely or, if the alleged abuser has been excommunicated for child abuse, to move to a lower commitment membership status until the matter is resolved.

The January 2005 murder of a former member by the leader's son Ricky Rodriguez (who had also left the group several years earlier), and his subsequent suicide shocked both members and former members, and led to considerable media attention.

flirty fishing-was a form of evangelism involving sex, practiced by new religious movement the Children of God/The Family to show God's love, win converts, and garner material and financial support. It was practiced from 1974 until 1987 when it was abandoned because of the AIDS epidemic and other reasons. "Flirty fishing" has been described as religious prostitution, but that is disputed by members of the sect.

Some group members also joined escort services and otherwise used sexuality for support, rather than solely as a means to win converts.

The term "flirty fishing" has to a limited extent made its way into contemporary culture.

so, i agree with whomever said that it does kind of make them social outcasts...
but its interesting to look at, creepy to the norm, but doesnt sex show god's love and whatnot? (haha, i am most definately just playing devil's advocate here :D)

[Heather]

now, i know this is out of context to the discussion that was going on, but what bothers me about religions, is how do you know which one is "right"?
I asked my religion teacher that when I was eleven. Her answer was so upsetting to me, (she basically said, that if you didnt believe in God and Jesus, then you're going to hell), that I went home and asked my mother. Her answer not only put me at ease, it made sense. Its the same thing I tell my students when they ask me that question.

WHat did my mother say to me?

She said, "If you look closely at all the religions, they pretty much believe the same thing. They just have different names for it."

As for cults...It may sound elitest, but I really look down on all cults. It comes from having a cousin which is a scientologist, and seeing first hand how it changes a person and isolates them.

[Faith]

I think the Christian view is sex is for baby making, and that's why it should be kept within the sanctity of marriage... so child sex defo doesn't show God's love :)

Well, that 'religion' sounds lovely, doesn't it?

There doesn't seem to be a lot of proof but there aint that much smoke without fire.

My cousin and her hubby kind of joined a cult too, and I don't like them... they are too good at manipulation and playing with people's minds... It's a shame, they have isolated themselves so much from the family, I miss their kiddies :(

[Ashlyn]

Faith and Gwen...

Good information.

It does seem really sad for me.

It does raise the question of freedom of religion vs. right, you know?

[Andrea]

Ricky Rodriguez, the young man who was raised to be the "Messiah" of the CoG was systematically sexually abused by dozens of church members since the age of two, and though he left the cult as a teenager, he later became consumed with rage at the abuse he'd suffered at the hands of the cult, and finally killed himself and, I think, his mother's best friend, when he was in his 20s. His abuse and bizarre upbringing were well documented and photographed and published in a book, which was meant to be a model/ trainer for all CoG parents, and which I think is still in publication in some countries. In short, the CoG is a terrible, horrifically abusive cult, and outlawed in dozens of nations around the world, including the US. IIRC, the Phoenix family left the cult when River was I think 7ish, and they were literally chased through several countries by the cult before finally escaping to the US through Puerto Rico, (which is where I think Joaquin was born.)

You can find out more about this extremely dangerous cult (as well as Ricky's tragic life story) here (http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Main_Page). Please note: that site is definitely NOT for younger readers. It doesn't have any nudity or violent anything, but it definitely contains some passages of text with extremely mature and difficult themes.

All that said, I think there are important differences between a cult and a religion worthy of being granted equal access to the civil liberties generally afforded to all religious minorities in a free nation.

Here's a fun and relevant question: what do you all think of Scientology? =)

[Andrew]

Scientology anagram --> "Yes, not logic"

:shrugs:

Another question: did anybody watch that Barbara Walters special? "Heaven: Where Is It and How Do We Get There?"

[Ashlyn]

Some of the stuff in Scientology seems crazy to me, but if people like it, then I guess it's their perrogative.

[Kay]

Is the "Children of God" cult or religion still going on?

[Kari]

I like the idea of this thread. I mean, I am happy to see the Christian Thread is so tolerant as to accept all religious discussion there, but still: why not have a thread to discuss all kinds of religious phenomenons or also philosophical questions from a rather neutral point.
(I used to have a fab religion teacher, who taught us a lot about philosophy...)

Now, somebody brought up the "right" religion...

My view on this:

There is no right religion. You can believe in something or you can't. Nobody can force you to. Some religions are older than others. Still they are not more right or wrong than any other religions.
Really, the pure assumption that there might be something such as a "right" religion has caused a lot of evil in this world and I hope this planet is by now at the point where the majority of people will realize that nobody has the right to place their religion above somebody elses :)

[Faith]

The being silent in scientology birth thing annoys me. They say don't bring the baby into the world in a way that will make them distressed... but they will probably like, cry themselves anyway. I mean, we were prob all born into loud chaos, I don't think it affected us so bad, lol.

On the note of CoG, it is alleged that they are told to masturbate etc thinking about Jesus. They are basically taught that Jesus wants a literal sexual relationship with them. The following is an alleged publication to young teens, (14-ish) introducing them to this idea of loving Jesus, only for the boys -

140 [To the young teen boys] In your lovemaking with Jesus you are not a man. You are making love to Him as His Bride, His spiritual wife. This is not a male-with-male relationship. It is a spiritual female, you, making love to a male, Jesus. He is the man, the Bridegroom, and you are the woman, His Bride, His wife.

Wow, what a lovely religion :drunk:

[Ashlyn]

It definately sounds outrageous to me.

[*gwen*~*grover*]

Scientology anagram --> "Yes, not logic"
wow... :eek:, :applause:... amazing... oh my, i am stunned, :lol:
how true, scientology is just weird (but beck is a scientologist... so... maybe... haha) i guess if they want to give their money to this organization thats their problem, as long as they dont intrude into my life... i still dont really get it, what it is...


Another question: did anybody watch that Barbara Walters special? "Heaven: Where Is It and How Do We Get There?"
no, but i read something on it and remember thinking it sounded interesting... what was it about?

[mimsicool]

I wanted to bring something up in this thread, the subject of faith.
(No, not you Gem ;))

What do you define as faith?
Over the years, I have formed my own ideas of what faith itself is. It is not a singular religion and it is not knowledge, though I think those aspects play a part.

I believe faith is believing without the need for evidence, because inside yourself you KNOW that it's true. Now, I don't mean having faith should be just plucking up an idea and with nothing to support it, start believing in it. No, I believe for faith, you need to understand what it is you're believing in and why you can believe in it. But "show me and I'll believe it's true" destroys the point of faith. To me, faith is "I believe because I know it's true", not "I believe because everyone else does" or "I believe because it's definitely true and so I have to believe in it." That doesn't mean that you shouldn't believe in things other people do, or if you know it's true, but if you get to the point where it's definitely true, then is it not knowledge, not faith?

I'm a Christian, and at the point I am in my life, I feel like my faith IS knowledge, and I know I believe it because I know with all my heart, it is true.
((And do not take this as personal attacks or anything, that is just my stance on this issue, because I believe in God with all my heart))

...

I don't know if that made sense to you guys, but it was just some thoughts to throw around. And yes, I know, it probably sounds very contradictory.

[Andrew]

I believe faith is believing without the need for evidence, because inside yourself you KNOW that it's true.

Indeed, it is technically defined as "not needing evidence." However, putting your faith into something still requires a tinge of reality, in a sense that one has to believe "it's a possibility." In order for something to be a "possibility", there has to be some sort of direct/indirect signal of evidence. So although not directly affiliated, evidence is somewhat related to faith.

Comparatively speaking, it's sort of like your parents and school; they have faith that you'll do well and pass all your classes because that is a possibility. But in the end, it doesn't neccesarily always happen that way.

Putting it back into context... You can have faith in God and follow His word, in hopes of getting into Heaven. But in the end, it may or may not work out that way.

So how do we know it actually happens? We don't. And yes, you can bring the word "faith" back into the picture by saying "One doesn't know, but one must be hopeful."

You can divide it between those willing to be hopeful and those whom aren't. I fall on the latter, but I sort of lean a little bit towards the former. In a way, I do sort of want to believe it and to have that feeling of "there is something more out there." But I don't. And even if I did, I don't see the logic in devoting myself in something that maybe isn't probable, let alone certain.

Which leads me to...

What was it about?

It was a special on ABC last Thursday. In short, Barbara Walters went around interviewing various people with various beliefs; the head of the Evangelist church (or something like that, I don't know the exact terminology for the guy), The Dalai Lama, a Rabbi, a failed suicide bomber in jail who is supposedly Muslim, another Muslim (he's a scholar of the religion, and he cleared up misconceptions), Richard Gere (another Buddhist), Maria Shriver (i think she's Christian), a Priest, and an Atheist.

In the show, I forgot who said it, but somebody brought up an interesting theory that (and i'm paraphrasing) maybe God is just a figurehead in which we aspire to only to have reason in being "good" / giving purpose to our lives.

[mimsicool]

Indeed, it is technically defined as "not needing evidence." However, putting your faith into something still requires a tinge of reality, in a sense that one has to believe "it's a possibility." In order for something to be a "possibility", there has to be some sort of direct/indirect signal of evidence. So although not directly affiliated, evidence is somewhat related to faith.


I agree on that. That is partly what I meant, I just...couldn't get it out right.

[MiloIsOnFire69]

im agnostic but im turning more atheist. if there is a god up there.. hes a hypocrit and really hate him because he took away the most important and precious things in my life and i really dont think that there is some guy up there watching over you and critizing everything you do. there is no heaven or hell if you dont believe in it. everyone makes mistakes and the last thing i need is to make myself stressed out about him and how im going to hell. well i dont believe in it so i cant go there. i just think its a lie they tell people to get them to believe in something

i hope i didnt offend anyone. i get angry when it comes to this.. thats just my opinion

[Faith]

I used to feel like that... when my grandma died, the most important and bravest person I know, I was... angry at God. Confused by God. Scared by God. But then... I don't know, I just figured...

She gave me so much, taught me so much and helped make me the person that I am. My life is so much better because I had her in it, and in this way, I feel that God didn't take my grandmother away from me. He gave her to me.

I somehow find it easier to have faith in God, and know that my grandmother is safe and content now, and not sick anymore, than I do to be angry at him anymore... But I didn't get there over night, and I totally get why some people look at the bad in the world, and wonder, 'where is God now.' I just think that there has to be a reason - there is so much good stuff, too many wonderful coincidences, for there not to be someone out there...

That's just my view at the moment, though. My faith is stronger sometimes then others :)

[Heather]

im agnostic but im turning more atheist. if there is a god up there.. hes a hypocrit and really hate him because he took away the most important and precious things in my life and i really dont think that there is some guy up there watching over you and critizing everything you do. there is no heaven or hell if you dont believe in it. everyone makes mistakes and the last thing i need is to make myself stressed out about him and how im going to hell. well i dont believe in it so i cant go there. i just think its a lie they tell people to get them to believe in something

i hope i didnt offend anyone. i get angry when it comes to this.. thats just my opinion
I completely understand where you are coming from. I really do.

When I was 21...I went to 11 funerals that year. If that werent enough, my dad was in the hospital (with a triple bypass), my grandmother had just died (when I was still dealing with the death of my other grandmother), and my favorite Aunt, who was more like a second mother to me, was diagnosed with terminal cancer (she's dead now). I was so angry, at the time.

I remember the exact moment when I lost my faith in God. My mom and I were in the car, and I said, "How much can one person take?", wanting to cry. And my mom replied, "He never gives us more than we can handle."

That made me so angry, furious. I thought, "How the hell does He know what I can handle, and who is He to decide? Who is He to take them away from me, my Grandma...Kathleen." I was so mad, I cant put into words how angry I was. That was when I turned away from God. I became a pagan, and a practicing witch.

Part of it was because I had a natural gift for witchcraft, another part was because I wanted to spite Him, to spit in His face for all the pain I was feeling.

After a few years, I found my way back to the Church. It just sort of happened, it wasnt something I was looking for. But Ive come to terms with certain things.

I can be an intensely spriritual person without being overtly religious. There are issues I have with the Catholic Church...serious issues. But I realized that I can believe in most of the canon while staying true to my spirituality. Yeah, I dont agree with them all the time, but I dont shun it anymore either.

I got over my anger and pain, and came back. And it made me a happier person in the end. Because, more than anything, it made it possible for me to meld all my beliefs together.

And as for God...yes, I know he exists. If he hadnt, my Grandma, and Kathleen wouldnt continue to visit me, like they do. (BTW...Im an empath...dont think I mentioned that.)

Kathleen, in particular, is a nightly visitor. Which makes sense, since her daughter is like my sister, and she was like a mom to me. If there wasnt an afterlife, if there wasnt a God, or a heaven, she wouldnt come back to warn me of things, or tell me things that I needed to know (like how she was proud of me, or how she was okay), or my Grandmother (who came to me in a field of white light the night Kathleen died....to prepare me.)

Weird things happen to me...really weird things. It comes from my dad, and is passed down to his daughters and granddaughter. Thats why I know that there is a God, and why me and my sister are able to meld our spiritual beliefs into our religious ones. Because, in the end, its all about faith.

As for why I believe in a God, in a supreme being....well, my brother lived in Baghdad's red zone for more than a year, and everyone I know was praying for him. He came home with barely a scratch. Yeah, it could be coincidence, but I prefer to believed that someone up there was looking out for him.

My friend, Dave, who as long as Ive known him, has been an atheist. (thats since 95, btw). A few years ago, he asked me why I believe in God...in something that I cant prove exists.

Heather: I just need to believe, that with everything happening in the world, that theres something bigger than me, than all of us, out there.
Dave: Yeah, Im starting to get that.

Keep in mind, this is the same guy, who called my brainwashed for knowing a Catholic mass. :lol:

eta
After reading the last page I need to add a few things...

First, according to the Catholic faith (or Bible), sex without marriage isnt a sin, sex without love is.

The purpose of marriage is procreation, not the purpose of sex.

Now...onto scientology,....

While the no screaming during birth thing distubrs me, it is not the most disturbing. Their take on psychiatry, prescription drugs...and what disturbs me the most is that their FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF is that our bodies are inhabited by the souls of aliens who lives millions of years ago.

[Faith]

First, according to the Catholic faith (or Bible), sex without marriage isnt a sin, sex without love is.

The purpose of marriage is procreation, not the purpose of sex.


That's so weird, I've been taught completely differently!

Can you find me references so I can consult my priest? lol :lol:

[Andrew]

Cool... Wicca... although I would've never guessed...

[Centerfinn]

Hey yall:)

[*gwen*~*grover*]

wow, Heather, thats really amazing... ive met a few people who have that gift, my mom's an acupuncturist and one of her friends is a healer, he communicates with spirits, and he came to my housse and did a demonstration/healing session... he does some really amazing stuff, he recently got a young boy who was having seizures out of a coma, the doctors dont know how he did it... i dont really know what that has to do with seeing spirits, but its really amazing.
so, seeing that has really influenced the way that i think, i mean, its not just a belief, just faith, its something that physically exists, an "afterlife" i guess... but i dont think it made me believe in god, it didnt reinforce any ideas of a heaven or life after death, but i think it made me wonder about could everybody become a spirit, (because i never really believed that there was an "afterlife", and honestly, i dont think i want to be or will be a "restless spirit"), how does your faith in life influence that...

In the show, I forgot who said it, but somebody brought up an interesting theory that (and i'm paraphrasing) maybe God is just a figurehead in which we aspire to only to have reason in being "good" / giving purpose to our lives.
well, what else would it be? i think thats why many people become so attached to religion, they are looking for a reason for life, and existence...

socrates said "wisest is she who knows she does not know"... im reading sophie's world, and i began thinking about this quote, and why to people need to have concrete beliefs? i think people need room to change faith, and lose faith, decide they dont need faith at all, everything in life changes with different encounters... so why not accept that we dont know, and not try to not find a "universal truth", but not necessiarily latch onto something... thats still an unfinished thought, but i thought id put it out there :bgrin:

[Heather]

im reading sophie's world...
That is an awesome book. A bit heavy at times, but Im almost done with it. Now its all about solving the mystery. :lol:

[*gwen*~*grover*]

^^haha, yeah, but suprisingly not dense :lol:... i want to know about the mystery, but the subject matter is so interesting that i dont realy care, haha.... i actually used it as a textbook in 8th grade, and ive wanted to reaad it since, so im excited... i was actually going to go read, haha

[Heather]

lol....I just want to know who this Hillde is. :lol:

I started reading it, and really getting into it when I was working in this office. This college student asked if I had any books to read at the time, and I told him that I did have one, but it might be too intellectual for him. haha!

He gave me this look, like "whatever", so I let him borrow it. He didnt even get to Plato!!! I asked what he thought, and he said, "it made my head hurt!" I laughed and said, "I told you it was too intellectual." :lol:

[*gwen*~*grover*]

haha, thats really funny... but im past Plato now, haha, give me a few more days (that is if i dont take off time reading it to read sex, drugs, and cocoa puffs... which in its own way is kindof philosophical :lol: )

***
anyway, my friend was telling me about this, and i think its really disturbing:
someone discovered that a mormon community in utah was baptizing people of other faiths after they died so they would go to 'mormon heaven' (bc of them having to fill up heaven by the second coming of the messiah, and they dont know when that is, or how many people they need)... (this also led to a funny discussion between me and my friend about what it would be like to be a jew, who finally gets to rest with no afterlife, and then wake up in fluffy mormon heaven and be like "what the hell am i doing here"... anyway) ... that really disturbs me, i was never a fan of mormonism, but the fact that they resort to secretely baptizing people after their dead makes me wonder whether its worth it or something... getting THAT invested in it, that you have to intrude on other people's lives bc the messiah may be coming soon... (you think god wouldve made his directions clearer if he wanted them to do it in time...)

[Andrew]

Just curious: what makes holy water holy?

[Heather]

Its blessed.

[Jon]

Just curious: what makes holy water holy?


That almost sounds like the beginning of a bad joke.

[*gwen*~*grover*]

like "holy bartender" bad joke, :lol:

what is holy water used for?

[Andrew]

:lol:

Well... uh... baptisms... blessing stuff... smiting heathens :up:

[*gwen*~*grover*]

killing vampires... i get it... and smiting heathens :lol:

[Centerfinn]

Has anybody seen "Revalations"? its series premier in Sweden tonight
i hear the show is about the end of days and the bible

[Heather]

Holy water...

Its used in baptisms, last rites, the blessing of the palms (for Palm Sunday). Its also kept at the entrance of every Catholic church, so parishoners can bless themselves (through the sign of the cross) when the enter.

[*gwen*~*grover*]

ah, ok, thanks...

just thought id ask... anyone here believe in the flying spaghetti monster?... ( :lol: )

[Andrea]

In the show, I forgot who said it, but somebody brought up an interesting theory that (and i'm paraphrasing) maybe God is just a figurehead in which we aspire to only to have reason in being "good" / giving purpose to our lives.There are many religions throughout human history which are not at all concerned with being purposeful OR good - just look at the Greek/Roman myths of old! =) Protestant Christianity doesn't teach that you can ever be good through believing in God. But it does teach that you can and should try.

[tommygirl887]

Going back to Heather's post, what exactly is an empath? I've heard of it before too. Is it having the ability to communicate with spirits?

[Ashlyn]

ah, ok, thanks...

just thought id ask... anyone here believe in the flying spaghetti monster?... ( :lol: )

:lol: My English teacher loves to talk about the flying spaghetti monster.

[*gwen*~*grover*]

i love it, its a great idea.
i actually went to a pirate themed new years party bc of it... ok, not where i wanted to go (at all, haha), but it was ok...
i personally think that its rediculous that they want to teach "intelligent design" in schools...

[Kari]

I think they should teach the concept of it, since it's very controversial at the moment, but they should teach it objectively.

[Andrew]

Going back to Heather's post, what exactly is an empath? I've heard of it before too. Is it having the ability to communicate with spirits?

Do you mean necromancy? or a medium

[*gwen*~*grover*]

I think they should teach the concept of it, since it's very controversial at the moment, but they should teach it objectively.
no, i have no problem with learning it objectively... its obvioulsy had a lot of influence on history and science... but the problem is teaching it as fact, in place, or along with science...