The Immigration Debate

[Andrew]

I can't find a good article, but you can probably just deduce what it's about.

So...


Illegal Immigrants: Amnesty or "Get out!"

[Manon]

hmmm ican't really discuss the situation in the US, but this is a huge topic in dutch politics right now...

[Danizinha]

I really don't have a formed oppinion on that.

I think it depends on each case.

I think it's wrong for people to immigrate and then be a burden to the local government, which happens a lot.
But on the other hand, there are those who immigrate because of the awful conditions in their own country, and work hard in the country they go to.

Of course it's not US's problem to help those people or anything, but I just think it's not right to send those hard-working people back to suffer in disgraceful situations.
For the non-working people though, I think the solution would be sending them back to their homes.

[bill the bloodl]

I think immigration is a big problem in most parts of the world. Obviously i cant speak for the USA but i can say a little about the situation in England. The fact is i think we dont need as many immigrants that are being let into our country. I mean they all want to go for a better life here but is that what they're getting, they live in the poorest of houses and have rubbish wages.

[Quinton]

Well... compared to their prior situations it would probably be a step up.

I'm on the fence as far as immigration goes.

[Andrew]

Hmm... I edited the question; the issue is broader than I thought :ponder:

I too sort of have a mixed reaction to it. I don't think it's right to just say "assimilate completely or leave" since there those who do get by without doing so, all the while following the laws (like for example: paying taxes).

But then there are those who abuse the system.

[Noah]

I believe that I fall under the "Learn to speak American or get the hell out!" mentality... :|


Seriously, I assume we're talking about the US immigration debate and with regards to Mexican immigration. I'll first say that I'm sick and damn tired of Washington politicians (and this is a mostly Republican stance) making the claim that these immigrants are working jobs that "Americans refuse to work". This is nothing but propaganda and a complete and utter fallacy. I will bet any amount of money that I could drive a bus through any US town or city in the country with a huge sign saying "Construction workers needed. $9/hr." and, within minutes, will be able to fill that bus with legal, able-body Americans who are willing to work hard.

All we need to do here is actually punish people who employ illegal immigrants and the problem is solved. You want to hire an illegal alien?- that'll be a $50,000 fine and/or 6 months to 1 year of jail time. That'll end the demand for illegal, cheap labor real damn quick. Before this country takes on millions and millions more of immigrants we need to make sure that every American who wants a job, can get one. If the demand for cheap, illegal labor is plugged, then immigrants have no reason to enter this country.

[Webeh]

Are we talking about assimilation or illegal immigration? I'm just getting a little confused from some of what's being said here. These concepts are two very different things.

I'll come back later to post my opinion regarding illegal immigrants. (I have a feeling that's the main issue of discussion here, despite the confusion. ;) Have to go now.

[HappyHamster]

What I find slightly confusing is that I read about illegal immigrants whom have been working in the US for years and have been paying taxes and I wonder how they are able to pay taxes if they're illegal. If you're paying taxes they can tell you're illegal, right? Or am I thinking too simplistically here?

[Webeh]

^ All the different computer systems are not that interconnected. (It's not like CSI where you can type in a name and you get every single detail existing about them.) I think this is a privacy thing. If everything is all on one system, you'll get people having access to certain types of information that they shouldn't be able to see. You find this a lot in hospitals. Different areas of the hospital has access only to certain types of patient information on different databases.

So, it's very easy to miss inconsistencies. For a lot of things, all you really need is a address to start off and you can slowly build your way up to other forms of IDs. For instance in Canada, I think you only need a birth certificate and a bill with your info on it to a get drivers license.

I'll be back tomorrow to write my opinions on illegal immigrants. I do have quite a bit to say, but it's late now and I'm tired. ;)

[Andrew]

What I find slightly confusing is that I read about illegal immigrants whom have been working in the US for years and have been paying taxes and I wonder how they are able to pay taxes if they're illegal. If you're paying taxes they can tell you're illegal, right? Or am I thinking too simplistically here?

Depends...

Some illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.

Then there are those who come to the US legally with a Visa. However, let's say they overstay the visit. I don't think it's a problem, as long as they still pay the taxes (or at least not an immediate problem... athough I'm sure about this).

I will bet any amount of money that I could drive a bus through any US town or city in the country with a huge sign saying "Construction workers needed. $9/hr." and, within minutes, will be able to fill that bus with legal, able-body Americans who are willing to work hard.

Okay. Fair enough. That's one example.

But you're not really taking into consideration the countless variables. For one, it's naive to think every job pays that much. Some of them get paid below minimum wage, while working way over "full time."

So to add onto that, let's say theoretically the "legal, able-body Americans" are given hard-labor jobs, under the same conditions and with the same wage. How long do you think they'll tolerate horrible working environments, extremely low revenue, and long hours?

As a legal citizen, you have rights. As an illegal immigrant, you don't really have the right to refute, reason being either you don't know the language or you just can't because you need any source of income, not matter how little.

Although I'm not saying "let the illegal immigrants suffer with these jobs and working conditions." Just pointing out this... how should I put it... "form of outsourcing" is a reality.

It's a harsh reality, but imagine what'll happen to the already decaying economy when they aren't working the hard labor, low paying jobs.

It sort of recalls the whole anti-Chinese riots back in the 18somethings.

[Webeh]

Illegal immigrants. Generally, I tend to be a bit more lenient than this, but not so much here. I do think that if caught, illegal immigrants should be deported for various reasons.

1. The immigration policies are there for a reason. Sure, they can be incredibly flawed, but I do agree with their intended purpose.
(A) Controlling population size. As a country, we can only support a certain number of people. So, we need to be a bit picky as a result, otherwise we'd have even more people living in insanitary conditions.
(B) Fulfilling the country's needs. All countries have specific needs. Through immigration, we can fulfill these needs. (However, I will admit that immigration policies are very misguided here. They say we need doctors, lawyers, etc. We don't. We need people who are willing to fill jobs in the secondary labour market and don't expect more because of their education background. Otherwise, we're just wasting their talent and our time.)

2. Allowing illegal immigrants to stay makes a very big statement. "We're willing to take everyone and anyone." Many countries pride themselves on immigration and likes to give off the impression that all are welcome. That's not true and we can't do that. As stated earlier, our country is only so big and can only support so many people. Yes, life isn't fair.

3. It disrespects those who go through the difficult process of immigrating legally. I have a friend who recently became a Canadian citizen and she was really happy about that. Why? Because getting that status was a long and hard process for her. (She had to apply twice because she turned 18 before she could take the test the the first time around as a minor.)

4. Human trafficking. I hate this. I really do. Traffickers exploit people by playing on their dreams of a better future. They get them to pay a disgusting amount to sneak them into a country and they don't even do it through sanitary conditions. On top of that, many traffickers suddenly turn around, claim that their fee is higher and make them work hard labour in lousy conditions for years at a time. (If they don't, their family overseas is harmed.)
I'm not completely sure if the deportation would actually curb this, but I think it would make a bit of statement. Kill the flawed idea that immigration would definitely lead to better things for everyone. That's not always the case.

5. This is going to sound childish, but illegal immigration is just plain rude to the country. Immigration is supposed to involve an invitation. You're not supposed to just plop your bags down here and suddenly decide to set up shop without permission.


Despite my arguments here, I don't entirely blame the immigrants for their actions. The way in which immigrants are selected for entry is very flawed. I don't think it appropriately considers the labour needs of this country. If you've noticed, many illegal immigrants are working in jobs from the secondary labour market, which needs filling. On top of that, we're getting professionals coming in who can't find work within their profession because they lack the appropriate background (appropriate as in local experience/education) to beat out other applicants for the jobs. (Also, we have the people to fill these positions.) So, then why is it that we're letting in so many professional and so few labourers? (Actually, I do know why. It makes a country look better if we let in the most educated. Even if they do end up working in donut shops instead of science labs.)

[*GrEGsBaBY22*]

I feel for immigrants I do but My parents are Haitian and my aunt and her children came here legally. She applied for a Green card before I was born and yet she did not receive one until June 2005 when she applied in '89. While there was a Haitian revolution and the country was in complete chaos. Haitians risked their lives crossing over into Florida. What did the governments do , They sent them back. If you are going to allow illegal immigrants, allow them all. I'm sorry until mercy to everyone I'm against it

[OTH man]

we were having this debate at school and lets just say i pissed off a couple immagrants at our school when i said "But if you can't speak english why the hell would you come here?"

cuz they like couldnt speak english

i think illegal immagrants should leave im all for legal immagration but why break our laws to get into our country?

[Webeh]

we were having this debate at school and lets just say i pissed off a couple immagrants at our school when i said "But if you can't speak english why the hell would you come here?"

1. Often, it's the other way around. You come to the country and then learn to speak English. A lot of countries do teach English as part of everyday learning, but not all. So, some don't have the English classes available to them until after they immigrate. Not mastering the English language right away is perfectly reasonable. Like most languages, English does take time to learn. I think what counts here is the effort to learn English. Because otherwise, finding work or forming a social network can be a very difficult thing to do.

2. Where else is there for them to immigrate to? Many of the countries that you can immigrate into and have the potential to live comfortably in do have English as an officiallanguage. If not English, than the official languages are often European. So, there isn't really much variety available when you don't speak English as a first language.

[OTH man]

true but she was just.. i duno

another question; If George W. Bush is such a "bad" president WHY are there sooo many immagrants trying to get in?

[Webeh]

another question; If George W. Bush is such a "bad" president WHY are there sooo many immagrants trying to get in?

Is this a question that just popped into your head because I never said anything about Bush? ;)

And the answer to your question. Living in a democratic country with a "bad" President is always better than living in a "democratic" (AKA. vote fixing)/communist/authoritarian/repressive/etc country. At least you don't get shot for protesting any government decisions. Also, the minimum wage you get paid there is bound to be better than it is where they're originally from. Plus, there's more work available in the new country.

[*GrEGsBaBY22*]

^^^ That true. im learning about communism and its comand ecnomy in Korea and i would do anything to escape that too

[Andrew]

Immigrants have been coming into the US way before his presidency, so the question of "whether or not he is liked" is pretty irrelevant


...in this case, anyhow... :sarcasm:

[Webeh]

That's true. Most of the immigrants in question here arrived before Bush II even came into power.

Here's another issue I think that should be brought up here. What about the children? I bet many illegal immigrants had children after the move, which makes them citizens (in my opinion anyways). If they are minors, what should be done about them? I don't think we have the right to push them out too. The children should not be punished for the actions of the parents.

It should be noted that if they are considered citizens, this means (in Canada anyways) that they can apply to have their family immigrated back here. (I don't remember the exact technical term for this.) How will this be affected if their family members were illegal immigrants?