View Full Version : Under God in the pledge of allegiance
Ol'blueyes
08-22-2006, 05:20 AM
Should it be kept or taken out? Give your opinion.
Krysie
09-04-2006, 04:18 AM
I think it should stay! It's ridiculous to take it out and makes me angry for them to even think about doing that.
Andrew
09-04-2006, 11:55 AM
Didn't we already have this debate?
Anyway... I honestly don't care. I'm capable of saying 'under god'... and i'm capable of omitting it, if that should happen.
OTH man
09-04-2006, 12:31 PM
I think it should stay, I mean our founding fathers put it in there, so it should stay there, and even if they do somehow take it out (very doubtful) I gaurentee the majority of the nation continues on saying it, because the Government cant really force us not to say it
Why not keep it and let people decide themselves whether they want to say those particular words. I mean, what is god?
First of all it is a word, then the concept is pretty open one. Maybe this pledge should rather be freed of the implicite Christianity that there is to it, than of the word god.
Andrew
09-04-2006, 12:34 PM
Actually, the "under god" part was added in 1954...
extreme_cowgirl
09-04-2006, 12:35 PM
I think it should stay! It's ridiculous to take it out and makes me angry for them to even think about doing that.
I agree with you. What ever happened to the USA being a Godly nation? Things change I can see, but God still has a big part in the USA weather you like it or not. THE USA was build on Christian Morals and all that, and to take it out would be like Krysie said it ridiculous.
Chris
09-04-2006, 12:35 PM
even though im not american (hope to be someday) i think that it dosnt really matter i mean even if your not christian its not going to kill you but i dont thinks its right to force them
So much for the founding fathers...not that it has any importance whether they or whoever put it there. The founding fathers were only human, too, as far as I understand it.
If somebody feels opressed by saying "under God" he shouldn't have to, if somebody feels opressed for being forbidden to say it, he should be allowed to, but seriously what's the big deal?
After votes in German the members of parliament pledge their allegiance, too. It's of course not the same pledge, but it included God, for those who want that.
I'm NOT patriotic, and I can't understand patriotic people (no matter their nationality). And I'm an atheist. So I find the whole "Pledge of Alliance" idea stupid (no offense, anyone) and I don't think it would be a bad thing to forget about the whole tradition and let kids pledge alliance to whatever they want to, whenever they want to.
That being said, if the Pledge is to stay, I find it absurd to change it just because some people think it's anticonstitutional. Of course, if someone feels really strongly about saying "Under God", they should be able to omit it and, just as it should be their right to omit it, I don't see why those who really want to keep saying it should have to stop saying it.
I mean, the whole debate is stupid. No one cares that much about saying it or not saying it, right? And those who do feel strongly about it (those whose parents feel strongly about it), should be able to chose.
Baby_Em05
09-09-2006, 07:01 PM
I'm not American, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway lol. I think it should stay. I don't udnerstand why it would be taken out. Isn't it hypocrital to take that out of the pledge of allegiance, yet all your bills have "In God We Trust" on them. Are they planning on changing the bills too?
In my opinion, it's kinda pathetic....
OTH man
09-10-2006, 12:09 AM
I'm NOT patriotic, and I can't understand patriotic people (no matter their nationality). And I'm an atheist. So I find the whole "Pledge of Alliance" idea stupid (no offense, anyone) and I don't think it would be a bad thing to forget about the whole tradition and let kids pledge alliance to whatever they want to, whenever they want to.
you cant understand people loving their country, their freedom, ect?... how can you not love America, its freedom, its opprotunities?
It's not about estimating what your country is giving you. I mean, I am more than happy to live here, because I live in a democracy that grants me the freedoms every person in this world should have, and where I have a roof over my head and always enough to eat, or maybe also because it is a country where gay marriage is allowed...
But, why should I be proud of being German, or why would anybody be proud of being a certain nationality. It's not really an achievement, is it? It's more or less a coincidence. And being proud of something that is a mere coincidence seems rather pointless to me.
I don't get the whole pledge thing...
tommygirl887
09-10-2006, 02:38 PM
I'm not American, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway lol. I think it should stay. I don't udnerstand why it would be taken out. Isn't it hypocrital to take that out of the pledge of allegiance, yet all your bills have "In God We Trust" on them. Are they planning on changing the bills too?
In my opinion, it's kinda pathetic....
I agree. And it's not only on the dollar bills, it's also on all the coins.
I think they should just leave it there. If you don't believe in god, then fine, just skip over it when you're saying the pledge, or don't say the pledge at all. No one is forcing you to.
tantucky
09-11-2006, 09:39 AM
I think it would be hilarious if they took it out *snickers*
you cant understand people loving their country, their freedom, ect?... how can you not love America, its freedom, its opprotunities?
Patriotism is not about loving the opportunities a certain country offers you: it's about loving YOUR country no matter what, just because you were born there. And that's what I can't understand.
Being born in some place is not something YOU DO. It's just something that happens to you, a fact you cannot influence. It's not an achievement, so I can't see how someone can be proud of it.
I do love the opportunities I get for living in Spain. I love having a roof above my head, being able to shower, eating every day, being able to go to college... and I love that I don't get to feel guilty about it because almost everybody in my country has that.
But that doesn't make me proud of my country. And it doesn't make me think that my country is the best. Because I know it's not. There are a lot of things I don't like about it.
IMO, patriotism takes criticism away. And I can't understand that. I can't understand unconditional love... especially not for an institution.
Leyton Forever
09-14-2006, 08:13 PM
I don't care either way. If people want to say it then say it but people who don't believe shouldn't be forced to say it either. It's personal opinion, if you don't say it then you don't. I don't see why it is such a big deal
Patriotism is not about loving the opportunities a certain country offers you: it's about loving YOUR country no matter what, just because you were born there. And that's what I can't understand.
Being born in some place is not something YOU DO. It's just something that happens to you, a fact you cannot influence. It's not an achievement, so I can't see how someone can be proud of it.
I do love the opportunities I get for living in Spain. I love having a roof above my head, being able to shower, eating every day, being able to go to college... and I love that I don't get to feel guilty about it because almost everybody in my country has that.
But that doesn't make me proud of my country. And it doesn't make me think that my country is the best. Because I know it's not. There are a lot of things I don't like about it.
IMO, patriotism takes criticism away. And I can't understand that. I can't understand unconditional love... especially not for an institution.See, again we agree ;)
HappyHamster
09-20-2006, 04:58 PM
I also agree with XDDD. I don't get patriotism and in my mind it's only a small step away from nationalism. I love the way Al Franken (yes yes I know mega-liberal alert, sue me) once put it (and the next bit is paraphrasing). Patriotism is loving you country like a child loves his mummy, unconditionally but also blindly. Everything mummy does is great and she can never be wrong. I love my country like an adult. I am thankful for the chances it has given me but I am also critical of it because I want it to be better than it is.
All that said, this is not actually a thread about patriotism but about the pledge of allegiance. And in short my opinion is...who cares? Say God, don't say God, don't do the pledge at all..whatever. I'm all for seperation of state and church but maybe we should first focus on some of the more pressing issues in the world. Although I do have to say that I find the idea of saying a pledge at the beginning of a school day rather weird and, dare I say it, indoctrinating (oops I just did). But that just leads back to the whole patriotism thing we already discussed so I'll shut up now. :D
Heather
09-24-2006, 12:21 AM
just for the record, if someone is uncomfortable saying "Under God" or it is against their faith, they dont have to say it. No one can force them to. So this whole debate is pretty much a mute point.
You dont want to say it, dont say it. Its that simple.
Metaphysics
09-27-2006, 09:19 AM
Should it be kept or taken out? Give your opinion.
Gotten rid of cos I think your pledging alligence to under something that doesnt really exist :sarcasm:....pledging alliegence under nothing really .
Also religious nationalism is real contridiction because nationalism (and patrotism) has really nothing to do with religion, religion is something totally different and doesn't really conform or follow the values of a country other than it's own. Furthermore, 76% of people in the world would put thier religion first before thier nationality and country.
So really it's stupid to pledege alliegence under god and religion
Andrew
09-27-2006, 09:39 PM
Actually, for the most part, when I say the Pledge of Allegiance, I'm just reciting it for the sake of reciting it since I think my allegiance is pretty self-evident.
The only thing one can debate about is "what is allegiance?"... which would then go back to the notion of patriotism.
Heather
09-27-2006, 10:44 PM
I think considering the times we live in, its important to show allegiance to your nation. But thats just me.
Personally, I grew up saying the Our Father every morning before homeroom, so I really dont get why people make such a fuss over the pledge of allegiance.
JohnnyTooBad
09-29-2006, 01:37 AM
What does "under god" have to do with allegiance to my nation?
Well, I personally am glad that I am in a public school that has nothing to do with the church, no German flag anywhere and that requires no prayers, pledges and other silly rituals, but in which I learn.
HappyHamster
09-29-2006, 09:01 PM
I think considering the times we live in, its important to show allegiance to your nation. But thats just me.
Does that go for everybody? Does that mean that a bunch of Saudi's pledging allegiance to their country (and their beliefs) doesn't scare the crap out of you? What I'm trying to say is that it's all so damn subjective. It all just depends on where you were born. I just know that everybody pledging allegaince to their specific country instead of the world as a whole scares the crap out of me.
JohnnyTooBad
09-29-2006, 09:38 PM
How about showing allegiance to peace and rationality? I don't wanna sound like a hippie, but, c'mon. Be rational, people!
JohnnyTooBad
09-29-2006, 09:39 PM
And furthermore, we're the generation that is gonna make peace happen... so we should really stop and think before we start perpetuating the mindless patriotism of generations past.
Metaphysics
09-30-2006, 06:38 AM
And furthermore, we're the generation that is gonna make peace happen... so we should really stop and think before we start perpetuating the mindless patriotism of generations past.
mindless patriotism including the independence from the british in 1776? :drunk:
I believe even this generation and future generations will never achieve ultimate peace... global peace especially is an impossible goal to achieve. look at cultural, political, economic, social relativism and varibles between countries. I think for true peace to be achieveable, all factors above have to be fixed and live in a utopian style world.
Webeh
09-30-2006, 04:27 PM
^ This is a really cynical view, but honestly I don't think absolute peace is possible. As long as difference exists in the world, you will always have disagreements.
However, I'm not saying that one should not push for peace because that is indeed a very admirable goal. After all, that has resulted in certain level of agreement in some places, even if it isn't 100%. (For example, some countries may have local violence occuring, but they are not suffering from any overly severe conflicts.)
Heather
10-02-2006, 10:44 PM
Does that go for everybody? Does that mean that a bunch of Saudi's pledging allegiance to their country (and their beliefs) doesn't scare the crap out of you? What I'm trying to say is that it's all so damn subjective. It all just depends on where you were born. I just know that everybody pledging allegaince to their specific country instead of the world as a whole scares the crap out of me.
I already said that was just the way that I felt. Clearly, I am not speaking for everyone. If you dont want to say it, dont. If you dont want to be proud of whatever country you live in, dont be.
I choose to be proud of the country I live in, faults and all. Because yes, no nation is perfect. But I am proud to be an American, because you know what, if I were born a hundred years ago, I wouldnt be. But my ancestors wanted a better life, took a chance, left everything they ever knew, and started over thousands of miles away.
Yes, Im proud of that. Because they risked everything they had for a dream, and it paid off.
And no, a bunch of Saudi's pleading allegiance to their nation doesnt scare me, just like the President of Pakistan doesnt scare me. What does scare me, is a bunch of terrorists (not claiming allegiance to any nation) who swear to wipe out all of western civilization. That is what scares me.
eta
Mindless patriotism? You mean the same mindless patriotism that expelled the English from this continent, helped debunk not one, but several fascist dictators, and brought an end to communism? That mindless patriotism?
Kristen
10-30-2006, 10:58 PM
Stay becasue we are under god, and thats how it has been for years.
I choose to be proud of the country I live in, faults and all. Because yes, no nation is perfect. But I am proud to be an American, because you know what, if I were born a hundred years ago, I wouldnt be. But my ancestors wanted a better life, took a chance, left everything they ever knew, and started over thousands of miles away.
Yes, Im proud of that. Because they risked everything they had for a dream, and it paid off.
To me all this makes a lot of sense. I mean, I would also be proud if my ancestors would have managed to realize their dream, grant a better future for their children and grandchildren. I am greatful and proud of my great grandfather who did the same thing for my family and who made it possible for me to live the way I live now. But how does that make me proud of the country I live in. I mean, I can say I am proud of something the country does, but how can I be proud of actually being a citizen of that country. It's not something I achieved. My greatgrandfather achieved it when I wasn't even born. I mean, I was kind of proud of this country when it refused to be in some wars, but I wasn't proud of being German then.
I get why you are proud of your ancestors and maybe proud of America because it nowadays or at least for a few decades symbolizes a dream of liberty and freedom (popular vocab there, I am feeling). But I don't get the concept of patriotism after all.
For me it's democracy, freedom, equal chances etc I thouroughly respect and appreciate in my nation, but that doesn't make me a patriot. I do also love some of the landscapes here and some of the literature and music that derived from this place for centuries, but neither is that something I am proud of. The first means, I am person with a sense of moral the second means I am a person with a sense for aesthetics. I would appreciate those in every single country of this world. In which I am born is after all a coincidence. I am overly critical of my own country, because I live here and generations of people are going to live here after me. I love people, not nations. If I try to improve this place and want the best for it, I do it because I want the following generations to be sane and happy, not because I want my country's power to increase.
And I do get the feeling that it is never very far from patriotism to nationalism. This strong awareness that one nation should be sumblime compared to others shocks me. I mean, I know that there are very educated and intellectual patriots, but I do think patriotism has its dangers. History told so.
And no, a bunch of Saudi's pleading allegiance to their nation doesnt scare me, just like the President of Pakistan doesnt scare me. What does scare me, is a bunch of terrorists (not claiming allegiance to any nation) who swear to wipe out all of western civilization. That is what scares me.
Why then attack nations?
Webeh
11-04-2006, 06:49 PM
I mean, I know that there are very educated and intellectual patriots, but I do think patriotism has its dangers.
Nazi Germany? I'm just taking a guess.
To be perfectly honest, I am sometimes confused about the definition of partriotism. From some places I see "pride for your country." Okay, fair enough. But other places, I get the impression that some are also interpretting this term to mean "never questioning the actions of your country."
I'm curious to see what is your impression of this is. Actually to be more specific, what would you consider as pride for your country? Can you be proud of your country and dislike the leaders, social policies, etc? Or, can you only be proud if you accept and agree with everything that your country does?
I'll admit that I do love the country I live in. (I don't know if I'd be able to live as comfortably anywhere else.) And if push came to shove, I would choose Canada over the origin country of my ethnicity. (I'd probably pick a fight if somebody ragged on about my home.) However, I dislike the current prime minister, I dislike certain policies that my government has enacted, I don't like some of the inequalities I see, and so on. I can very vocal about my dislikes. Yet, I still consider myself to be proud of Canada.
Ashlyn
11-13-2006, 11:02 AM
Of course it should stay.
America is a theocracy, after all!
Oh... wait. :ah:
I don't think this is really an argument about patriotism. I understand, and accept that Christianity played a HUGE role in founding our country. I will not debate or deny that, and I don't believe we should re-write history.
I would fight against anybody trying to ERASE that from our history.
But, in the pledge, the "Under God" isn't historical, it's an active statement, and I believe our pledge should represent all of America.
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