Saddam Hussein sentenced to death by hanging

[OC-Lover]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Saddam Hussein was sentenced Sunday to death by hanging for his role in a brutal crackdown nearly 25 years ago in Dujail -- the once obscure Iraqi town that is now a symbol of his regime's cruelty.

Also sentenced to death were Barzan Hassan, Saddam Hussein's half-brother and former head of the intelligence agency, and Awad Bandar, the former chief judge of the Revolutionary Court.

Bandar repeatedly screamed "Allahu Akhbar" -- God is great -- as he was being taken out of court.

Taha Yassin Ramadan, the former vice president of Iraq, was sentenced to life in prison.

"This is very clear, and I tell the people today that the verdict was predetermined and has nothing to do with court proceedings," Ramadan said.

Three other defendants were each sentenced three to 15 years in jail, and one was acquitted.

Mohammed Azzawi Ali, a former Dujail Baath Party official, was exonerated because, the court said, there was insufficient evidence against him.

The verdicts come nearly three years after U.S.-led forces plucked Hussein out of hiding and just a few days before U.S. midterm elections, with the Iraqi war at center stage.

The defendants filed into the courtroom to receive their sentences from a five-judge panel.

Defense attorney Ramsey Clark was also in court, but he was soon ousted by judges. The court asked Clark to leave, saying he had come here from America to mock the Iraqi people and this court.

The tribunal met in Baghdad to render verdicts for the co-defendants for their roles in a systematic attack on the Shiite town of Dujail after someone tried to assassinate Hussein during a visit on July 8, 1982. (Watch scenes from Dujail crackdown, Baghdad preparations -- 3:20 )

The tribunal met amid heavy security and sweeping curfews in Baghdad and elsewhere, as authorities brace for violent reactions to the verdicts. (Full story)

This chapter of the much-criticized trial, which began in October 2005, comes nearly three years after U.S.-led forces plucked Hussein out of hiding and a few days before U.S. midterm elections on November 7.

Each defendant found guiltycan appeal. The sentences of life imprisonment and death allow for an automatic appeal.

There is no limit on how long the appellate judges have to review the case file, but the statute states that a death sentence should be carried out within 30 days after all appeals are exhausted.



source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/05/dujail.saddam/index.html

[seth_is_my_baby]

Finally.
He totally deserves this. He's insane!

[OC-Lover]

i'm against the capital punishment.

[seth_is_my_baby]

But look what he's been involved in? He deserves exactly what he gets.

[OC-Lover]

don't get me started on that, bush is much guiltier than saddam.

[seth_is_my_baby]

I'm not American, I have my own opinion on Bush.

[OC-Lover]

i'm not american either, but if you'd judge them by their war crimes & such things, then Bush is the one that should be lapidated.

but this not what this thread is about.

[seth_is_my_baby]

Well I'm just giving my opinion on these people, and that's what I think.

As you said, this thread isn't about Bush.

[zozo]

oh,im very happy today
and most of the iraqis are soooo happy that saddam will death by hanging he deserves it....frankly its sooo little as punishment for him.
and plz u dnt knoe saddam well im an iraqi girl and u must know that saddam is not better than bush....hes a big killer..and for example he killed my uncle and was about killing my father and many faults i dnt know with wich one shall i start...
anyway thanx for the thread so i could express my opinion about this event..
bye

[Chris]

Im so glad :D im against capitol punishment but he deserves it

[Deb Almighty]

Wow! That is so lame. I hated that trial, he is an evil man but that trial was crap, a joke maked by americans.

[Chris]

well if there wasnt a trial there would have been even more uproar

[Annika.]

i'm against the capital punishment.


So am I, it's cruel and gross, but if one person in the world deserved it, it probably would be someone like Saddam Hussein.

[everwoodisfab]

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this. I'm really against capital punishment and I think to hang someone is a terrible thing but he has done so much wrong he deserves punishment... I dont know. But I agree with Tanya in that Bush is incredibly corrupt himself and deserves his own come-uppance. Both the British and the American governments have alot to answer for.

[Krazy]

I have mixed feelings about all of this. I'm not one for Capital Punishment but i guess Saddam got what was coming to him. The trail wasnt ridiculous though.

[OCvirgin]

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this. I'm really against capital punishment and I think to hang someone is a terrible thing but he has done so much wrong he deserves punishment... I dont know. But I agree with Tanya in that Bush is incredibly corrupt himself and deserves his own come-uppance. Both the British and the American governments have alot to answer for.

I totally agree... punishments are deserved all round. Saddam has been caught and they will put as much on him as possible. Sure he deserves to be punished, but so do so many others. Lets see what form their come-uppance takes.

[Kari]

Well, for me that is at the same time a very difficult and a very easy issue.

I am against capital punishment. Period. I don't make exceptions there or compromise, for I think that capital punishment is just wrong, no matter what the person has done and how much he deserves to die.

Sure, Saddam does deserve the worst possible punishment that there is and I think that any conviction would have been justified. But as I don't believe in capital punishment, this judgement is to me, nothing but wrong.

[Manon]

I heard this on the news, and i was like: are they joking? Because they said it in the same way as they would say that it's going to rain tomorrow. Like it was the most normal thing ever. And it sounds so...medieval...hanging....

[Kari]

well...you live in the Netherlands which is one of the most progressive countries in the world, and even to me the concept of death penalty seems absurd. But it is so common, and it shouldn't, because it derives from an idea of justice that is quite medieval.

[OTH man]

i'm not going to get started on what you said of Bush....

anyways, i think he deserves it, i mean hes actually the most hated man in the world, pretty much tied with Bin Laden, either way, hes a horrible man

[Lalune*]

& Bush, eventhough you might not want to hear it. He is hated by many. Anyway, also I will not get started about Bush!

The sentence didnt came as a suprise to me. And also I am against capital punishment. It doesnt not matter to me how cruel the person is. I am against it. Giving someone capital punishment makes you just as bad, since you are also taking someone's live, eventhough he deserves to die, it's not about other's to decide.

I rather see Saddam rot in a cell in Iraq.

[Manon]

$100 says they're going to show it on television

[OTH man]

i was thinking the same thing mannon, itll be public & on TV

the prob with him in a cell- is he doesnt think he did anything wrong

[Krazy]

^^wouldnt be surprised if they showed it.
Tony Blair has said he is against the capital punishment basically saying against what is going to happen to Saddam. But he wont stop it, he'll just follow what George Bush and America too. *sigh*

[Lalune*]

The fact that he may think he did nothing wrong doesnt have anything to do with the fact that he should be sentenced to death...

and it's not going to be anytime soon. He still has those other trails, I dont know what they are called.

[Metaphysics]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Saddam Hussein was sentenced Sunday to death by hanging for his role in a brutal crackdown nearly 25 years ago in Dujail -- the once obscure Iraqi town that is now a symbol of his regime's cruelty.

Also sentenced to death were Barzan Hassan, Saddam Hussein's half-brother and former head of the intelligence agency, and Awad Bandar, the former chief judge of the Revolutionary Court.

Bandar repeatedly screamed "Allahu Akhbar" -- God is great -- as he was being taken out of court.

Taha Yassin Ramadan, the former vice president of Iraq, was sentenced to life in prison.

"This is very clear, and I tell the people today that the verdict was predetermined and has nothing to do with court proceedings," Ramadan said.

Three other defendants were each sentenced three to 15 years in jail, and one was acquitted.

Mohammed Azzawi Ali, a former Dujail Baath Party official, was exonerated because, the court said, there was insufficient evidence against him.

The verdicts come nearly three years after U.S.-led forces plucked Hussein out of hiding and just a few days before U.S. midterm elections, with the Iraqi war at center stage.

The defendants filed into the courtroom to receive their sentences from a five-judge panel.

Defense attorney Ramsey Clark was also in court, but he was soon ousted by judges. The court asked Clark to leave, saying he had come here from America to mock the Iraqi people and this court.

The tribunal met in Baghdad to render verdicts for the co-defendants for their roles in a systematic attack on the Shiite town of Dujail after someone tried to assassinate Hussein during a visit on July 8, 1982. (Watch scenes from Dujail crackdown, Baghdad preparations -- 3:20 )

The tribunal met amid heavy security and sweeping curfews in Baghdad and elsewhere, as authorities brace for violent reactions to the verdicts. (Full story)

This chapter of the much-criticized trial, which began in October 2005, comes nearly three years after U.S.-led forces plucked Hussein out of hiding and a few days before U.S. midterm elections on November 7.

Each defendant found guiltycan appeal. The sentences of life imprisonment and death allow for an automatic appeal.

There is no limit on how long the appellate judges have to review the case file, but the statute states that a death sentence should be carried out within 30 days after all appeals are exhausted.



source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/05/dujail.saddam/index.html



Some say that if he gets hanged he's gonna die as a martyr, that doesn't make sense to me cos right now he's appealing against his sentence, otherwise he would have not given a shit and said you know what, kill me, but I am gonna die as a martyr..... :s

I don't think hanging him is the answer, I think it's an easy way out for him because he'll be dead, he won't conciously suffer like how he tortured and killed all those he massacred while in power. Once your dead well your not alive to be punished and to truly suffer for the crimes you committed, I keep him alive till he dies but make sure he suffers for the shit he caused.

[everwoodisfab]

$100 says they're going to show it on television

If they do I think I might actually be sick

[Kari]

They will and I will not watch it.

[Chris]

they will show it on Al Jazeera, im from the UK and i have Sky so i have that channel

[Foxy*]

I dont know about this.
Im totally against capital punishment,but at the same time Saddam was a cruel,cruel man:shrugs: I think that he should be locked in a cell for life imprisonment,but he doesnt think what he did was wrong so that wouldnt really plague him inside there,now would it.
As for being on T.V,whoever would watch that has some serious issues,how could you watch someone being killed{however much you hate him},you'd almost be as bad as him if you did.

[danyjoncew]

I agree with Kari and Manon. Death? By hanging? That's medieval. To be honest, I have a hard time accepting that people living in 2006 can talk about such thing as if it was anywhere near normal (and here I say that common doesn't have to be normal), since is something I strongly don't believe in.

It's not about feeling bad for Saddam, that would be really sick and I think we all here agree on that one. But I feel bad for humanity. We go on and on about justice... One would think/hope that we're making progress over the years...

Ps.: I'd be saying the same if it was Bush.

[everwoodisfab]

Some say that if he gets hanged he's gonna die as a martyr, that doesn't make sense to me cos right now he's appealing against his sentence, otherwise he would have not given a shit and said you know what, kill me, but I am gonna die as a martyr..... :s

I don't think hanging him is the answer, I think it's an easy way out for him because he'll be dead, he won't conciously suffer like how he tortured and killed all those he massacred while in power. Once your dead well your not alive to be punished and to truly suffer for the crimes you committed, I keep him alive till he dies but make sure he suffers for the shit he caused.



I think the term martyr is being used because if he is killed then there is a possibility that people would commit acts of terrorism or war in his name... but imo whatever happens there are going to be people who are annoyed, perhaps enough to go that far.

[oclover24]

So am I, it's cruel and gross, but if one person in the world deserved it, it probably would be someone like Saddam Hussein.

For sure. I'm normally not "an eye for an eye" but for this man, anything goes. It's not like he killed one person, or ten, or a hundred. He killed thousands! Thousands of his own citizens. Saddam Hussein is a horrible man and he deserves this. Somebody said he's not even remorseful, so jail wouldn't work. Death by hanging is indeed a bit midevil, however.

[Faith]

He will be viewed as a martyr by his followers if he is killed, whether he fights it or not. Let's be serious for a moment -- the kind of people that support Saddam are not rational people.

Personally I think this is a complete and utter farce. Death is not a punishment. People say 'eye for an eye.' He killed, he should be killed. But death is not the only evil Saddam has caused. What about the families and loved ones of those that he killed. Yes, it is terrible that those people died, but the people that lived are the ones that have to live with this evil mans actions for the rest of their lives. They are the ones that are haunted by this forever. If Saddam is killed, his pain is over in a matter of minutes.

What could hurt a man hellbent on power more, than being completely stripped of it?

Imprisonment is the way to go.. imo, obviously

[zozo]

^^ u r right

[*Lauren*]

I think that it's about time!

[everwoodisfab]

He will be viewed as a martyr by his followers if he is killed, whether he fights it or not. Let's be serious for a moment -- the kind of people that support Saddam are not rational people.

Personally I think this is a complete and utter farce. Death is not a punishment. People say 'eye for an eye.' He killed, he should be killed. But death is not the only evil Saddam has caused. What about the families and loved ones of those that he killed. Yes, it is terrible that those people died, but the people that lived are the ones that have to live with this evil mans actions for the rest of their lives. They are the ones that are haunted by this forever. If Saddam is killed, his pain is over in a matter of minutes.

What could hurt a man hellbent on power more, than being completely stripped of it?

Imprisonment is the way to go.. imo, obviously

sorry for the double post I messed this one up :( I hate computers

[everwoodisfab]

He will be viewed as a martyr by his followers if he is killed, whether he fights it or not. Let's be serious for a moment -- the kind of people that support Saddam are not rational people.

Personally I think this is a complete and utter farce. Death is not a punishment. People say 'eye for an eye.' He killed, he should be killed. But death is not the only evil Saddam has caused. What about the families and loved ones of those that he killed. Yes, it is terrible that those people died, but the people that lived are the ones that have to live with this evil mans actions for the rest of their lives. They are the ones that are haunted by this forever. If Saddam is killed, his pain is over in a matter of minutes.

What could hurt a man hellbent on power more, than being completely stripped of it?

Imprisonment is the way to go.. imo, obviously

I agree, I've been thinking more about this and I can't get over how barbaric hanging sounds... it seems like society is regressing a little, there are other ways to go about punishing someone, even someone as evil as saddam

[Faith]

Don't get me wrong, the instant I heard the news I thought, "oh, okay... good. Evil sod." But the more I think about it, the more I feel that the human race has progressed past this very animalistic punishment. It's too... instinctive.

I think he should be punished. How is something that is coming to us all a punishment?

[danyjoncew]

And it's done.

[oclover24]

Yep.

Boy, they waste no time on executing him. If he was in the U.S., he would have had to wait for years before finally get executed.

[danyjoncew]

Yeah... I thought it would happen next year.

Absolutely disgusting.

[oclover24]

^ The hanging or the act of execution?

I used to be very liberal, but lately, I find myself drifting to the right. Not enough to vote for a Republican, though. Anyway, I agree with his execution. Hanging is a bit weird, though.

[danyjoncew]

Hanging makes me wanna move to Pluto. I don't know, I don't really agree with executions either. And as far as Saddam goes, I think it was at least premature. His trial deserves an Oscar.

[oclover24]

^ Gotcha.

As I said to my dad: "Who wants to bet the video of his execution will be on YouTube in a couple of days?"

[Annika.]

I don't think it was the right punishment for Hussein as he wanted to die as a martyr and that's what he got. On the radio they said that they showed the beginning of the execution on TV, not the execution itself but the preparation.
That is so ... I cannot describe it, it's awful!

In another forum a girl said that she thought that this would be the best punishment for him, as life is the most valuable thing in the world and they take it away from him. But what could he have done with his life? Nothing. So where is the point in killing him? It's the best thing you could do to him.
I think he should've been locked up in prison and stay there for the rest of his life without any previleges. That would've been a punishment he deserved.

[zozo]

annika u may be right...but the sittiuations in iraq are dangerous cause in any moment he may run away and all the killers/saddam fans will keep a hope that he may judge iraq again someday sooo thats why we want him to be killed!!

[Annika.]

So don't lock him up there.
I'm sure there is a place in the world with a maximum-security prison where he can't just run away.

[Faith]

I am very saddened by the speed of this, the method of this... the whole thing really.

By killing Saddam, the government have given him the second best present they could have given him after his own freedom - they have given him the chance to die content in the fact that he is a martyr. He has no chance of ever repenting... unlikely as that may be, there was no chance. He died as content as anyone could die, because he died for a fight he believed in. He should have been left to rot in a cell, where his freedom was taken away from him, as that is what he trully valued.

What a sad state the world is in. Makes you realise how little say you have in it

[Annika.]

^ I totally agree with you.

edit: oh my god, on cnn is a video how they place place the noose around his neck and when you enter the cnn page there is a picture of it. I didn't watch the video. That is so abnormal!

[zozo]

girls i live in iraq and see what happening..all the iraqis now in the streets celebrating this special even let them be happy at least!!

[Annika.]

You can be happy if you want to, I just think it's not right to show it on tv! It feels like I'm living in the Middle Ages and not in the 21th century!

[Faith]

Be as happy as you want.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to be happy about it..

I'm saying that I am not happy about it. Just one little voice in the middle of nowhere, yes, but I don't agree with capital punishment, not even in a case like this.

[BenBrazilianFan]

oh, it's done. I was surprised when I found out it'd be today... you're right, the whole thing is orcar-worthy.

I'm against the Capital punishment as well.

[Wieke]

I am releived.. that guy cant do anything bad to the world anymore... the trial was one big joke... I didnt see the entire thing, but the stuff I saw I was like; O my god...

I am against capital punishment too, but about Saddams punishment; I sooo agree... but I wonder if hanging is worse then being in prison til the end of your life, alone...

well.. overall; I am happy its done and I am happy for Iraq

[oclover24]

Hanging is punishment enough, in my opinion: you lose your life, and you realize it as you walk up to the noose. You know your life is going to end right there.

He should have been left to rot in a cell, where his freedom was taken away from him, as that is what he trully valued.

I really don't think that Saddam valued freedom. He valued one person controlling the masses. I've already said this, but I want to stress it: Saddam showed no remorse for what he did. Jail would not help him!

girls i live in iraq and see what happening..all the iraqis now in the streets celebrating this special even let them be happy at least!!

Congratulations! I hope this helps Iraq move foward. How do you feel about Saddam's hanging?

[OTH man]

im typiclly againt cap. punishment for the reason that theres a chance the person is innocent, but in this case.. ::over it::

[Faith]

really don't think that Saddam valued freedom. He valued one person controlling the masses.

Not other people's freedom! His own. He lived for power, and power comes from freedom.

[*Zara*]

y did they have to do it on eid tho a religious festival they could havbe waited a week now that sjut so totally wrong and disrespectful

[OTH man]

y did they have to do it on eid tho a religious festival they could havbe waited a week now that sjut so totally wrong and disrespectful
can you type that in normaltalk, i really cant understand that

(and im trying not to be mean here, i just cant understand what you said and netspeak is against FB rules)

[oclover24]

Not other people's freedom! His own. He lived for power, and power comes from freedom.

Ah, I get what you're saying. However, I still believe in what I previously said.

[Ashlyn]

The full video of his hanging is up somewhere, one of my friends watched it. Positively sickening. I'm against capital punishment, but I mean.. Sadaam was pretty much one of those people who deserved it if anybody did, but... wow... hanging? Really?

[oclover24]

I don't think I'd want to watch the whole video. I just watched the part where they put the noose on his neck.

[*Zara*]

can you type that in normaltalk, i really cant understand that

(and im trying not to be mean here, i just cant understand what you said and netspeak is against FB rules)


sorry hehe!!

ok i wrote :
why did they have to do it on eid though a religious festival they could have waited a week! now that is just so totally wrong and disrespectful

[Theresa]

I watched a report on this on the news and honestly, I don't know how to feel. Sure he really deserved it, and that is a brutal death. I just didnt think it would come to that.
Zahra, I didnt know you live in Iraq. It just goes to show how many people actually hated him and I hope it will improve things a little.

[tantucky]

I never thought they would go through with it for some reason. Poor Saddam that was ****ed up. And don't say 'but he killed alot of people' cause Bush killed alot of people too and I don't see that wanker being hung. -.-

[amberdawn]

Thing is, Saddam purposely killed innocents. He WENT AFTER innocents. He ordered his men to kill THOUSANDS of his own people!!!! President Bush went after TERRORISTS who were a real danger to US and want our people dead. Big difference.

Saddam deserved what he got. He was a truly evil man who didn't give a **** about the lives of innocent people and CHILDREN.

[danyjoncew]

Bush went after terrorists? Hee! That's funny and must be exactly why the UN and most people in the world are against the wars USA gets in: we don't want to stop terrorists/dictators.

Well, as I've said before, from my point of view Saddam did deserve what he got. But my opinion does not matter at all, the opinion of the Iraqi majority does, so I hope they at least are in agreement with what happen (then again, I don't see why they wouldn't be).

Even if I don't agree with hanging as punishment for anyone, I see that as a small debate next to the what I see as the main issue there: the pathetic court they had for Saddam. I know we all saw Saddam as a monster, but this is real life, not Hollywood. And just because we all hated him and would be nothing else but thrilled to see him dead, the final goal does not justify his theatrical trial.

ps.: I think this post sounds a little harsh and I'm really sorry for that, I really do hate silly online fights... is just that this whole Iraq situation makes so mad!

[oclover24]

I think it's wrong to compare Bush to Hussein.

[danyjoncew]

I think it's wrong to compare Bush to Hussein.

You have a lot of reason there. Although I wouldn't use the word wrong.

[oclover24]

^ Yeah, I'd change "wrong" to "unfair."

[Faith]

I think it can be justified to make such comparisons depending on your standpoint.

It's all about your moral stance and in what sense you are looking at it.

If you look at it from as their differing 'bloodlust' levels, then this may be unfair... If you're against (this) war and the likes, then it seems a fair enough comparison to make, really.

[amberdawn]

Yeah, totally. Comparing President Bush to a man who didn't give a rats a** about the innocents and children of his country is totally right!

[Faith]

Bush went and bombed a country that had innocents in. Children died too. He didn't give a 'rats arse' about the innocents in someone elses country, some would say. Some not being me, my feelings towards Bush are quite removed from this matter

[Kay]

Thing is, Saddam purposely killed innocents. He WENT AFTER innocents. He ordered his men to kill THOUSANDS of his own people!!!! President Bush went after TERRORISTS who were a real danger to US and want our people dead. Big difference.

Saddam deserved what he got. He was a truly evil man who didn't give a **** about the lives of innocent people and CHILDREN.

Oh please..Bush just went after the oil and killed everything on his way, how many children and babies died because of him trying to get the terrorists. and lets not forget the YOUNG girls and women that were raped, what? raping is a now a way to stop the terrorists too?

& while what Saddam did wasnt right, at all, and I am against him fully, he didnt go around asking "Excuse me, are you innocent? Yes?" *bang* he killed whom he THOUGHT were terrorists, or at least thats what he said...same as Bush.

& while this has nothing directly to do with it, I'll ask anyways, how many poeple that were in charge were hanged for what they did in the Vietnam War? [Okay maybe hanged wouldnt happen because of the laws, since being hanged for his crime is a law in Iraq but that beside the point] How many people are going to get what they deserve in this war? & I'm talking about the US and UK army here.

*sighs and shakes head*

What makes this worse is how the stupidass goverment went about doing this, on EID? ****ing hell. No respect, i think it was pretty easily seen that Saddam had followers, that America is now on the hated list of must Muslims lists..hell most peoples list, and than they do that, its not right. Leaving what he did out of it, or even including it, they could have waited a week, hell 2 days, but no they went through with it on a religious & holy day, one that is celebrated by the whole muslim world on the same day.

*guh*

I dont mean to offend anyone, but whatever

[danyjoncew]

^ Yeah, I'd change "wrong" to "unfair."

I wouldn't say unfair either. They are just about as disgusting as each other. But I do think the comparison can be naive and superficial at times.

Then again I think it's undestandable that people compare them, since they were the main leaders of the two main countries involved in this war. And they do have some very nasty things in common. Plus, it does not help at all when somebody comes saying that Bush is like the kindest guy fighting terrorists. People are already angry that this war is going on, so any excuse to bash Mr. monkey Bush is taken advantage of; the hanging of the man he was supposed to be going after would be no different.

he didnt go around asking "Excuse me, are you innocent? Yes?" *bang*

:lol: Damn it, I feel so evil for laughing. I can just picture a movie in my head:

Saddam: Excuse me, are you innocent?
Person: Yes.
Saddam: Awww, here's a cookie. What about you , sweetie?
Person2: I'm innocent!!!
Saddam: Kill him. NOW!

[Heather]

Id like to replay a convo between a new friend of mine and me the night of the hanging:

[looking at the news]
Andy: How can anyone look at that, see how happy they are, the celebrating in the streets, and say that we were wrong to go there?
Me: But they will. Its wrong, but they will.

As for my thoughts on Saddam:

"Ding dong, the #$*! is dead...

[Krysie]

I think it's wrong... they should of just let him rot in prison/whatever.. I mean I don't agree about all of people that get put to sleep.. and especially hung. :( No matter what someone did. Let them sit in prison.. and feel bad for what they did. That's how I see it anyway... just my opinion.

Did anyone hear about the little boy who seen the video? He went and did the same thing that happened to Saddam to himself... it's so devastating....
I think he was only like 5 years old... :( I have no idea why the parents let him watch that!!

[Theresa]

I think it's wrong... they should of just let him rot in prison/whatever.. I mean I don't agree about all of people that get put to sleep.. and especially hung. :( No matter what someone did. Let them sit in prison.. and feel bad for what they did. That's how I see it anyway... just my opinion.

Did anyone hear about the little boy who seen the video? He went and did the same thing that happened to Saddam to himself... it's so devastating....
I think he was only like 5 years old... :( I have no idea why the parents let him watch that!!

I happen to agree krysie, for someone like Saddam him rotting in prison would be a far better punishment than death.
I didnt hear about that boy but i find that horrific. I wouldnt be able to watch the execution myself but i hear a lot of people want to see it, and its soo sad that the boy did it to himself.

[Kari]

Id like to replay a convo between a new friend of mine and me the night of the hanging:

[looking at the news]
Andy: How can anyone look at that, see how happy they are, the celebrating in the streets, and say that we were wrong to go there?
Me: But they will. Its wrong, but they will.

As for my thoughts on Saddam:

"Ding dong, the #$*! is dead...
Oh my God.

Probably this is exactly why I am principally against capital punishment.

[Kay]

What has killing Saddam done? Seriously? Apart from killing INNOCENT people.

Everyone is standing back and judging him for his acts, was he wrong? hell yes he was but he ran a good country, if you stayed away from politics you were fine. Iraqi people were fine, they didnt ask for help from anyone. families were together, they had jobs, each family had a car, they had education, they had everything they needed to live a GOOD life, as long as they stayed away from politics they were fine. & now, everyone is dying, and all for nothing..when will there be peace again? when will families be back together?

& I know some will say thats not REAL freedon, people should be able to get involoved in politics and not fear for their lives and yes they should, but in every country there are boundries, were the ones in Iraq worse? probably but they were there.

In Yemen the ways were MUCH worse, if you crossed the line you didnt just get killed, or tortured in the way Iraqies were itw as so very much worse, & no one got involved. Wanna know what happened? They people got their way in teh end and now they live in less harsh times, life is still a bitch but THOUSANDS didnt die for no reason, peace wasnt taken away because the ****ing US feared for what they could do.

This wasnt a war to free them, or just for oil, there was Iran & Kiewit to be taken into a count, well ****ing well done a country is ruined because Bush thought he should free them from the misery.

Was what Saddam doing right? No
Did the US have any right to start a war? No
guantanamo bay anyone?

p.s.
"Ding dong, the #$*! is dead...
now tahts what I'll be singing the day Bush dies

[Kari]

I agree partly, Kara.

I think the war should never have been started the way it was in the first place. I do believe Saddam was about the biggest bastard in the world and a revolution and a radical change was absolutely due in Iraq, however not in a way that is almost as undemocratic as what Saddam did.

Yeah, I am not attacking American soldiers now, just to make this clear from the very start. They do their job and that is something I respect. A dear friend of mine is US soldier and he was in Afghanistan and Iraq, so don't get this wrong to start with.

I do think change was necessary in the Iraq, what happened was that a country was put into huge chaos, thousands of people died and there is not really and end in view.
Yep, I do not think what was going on in Iraq was actual freedom, I think the United Nations and the EU should never have ignored the way Saddam was killing innocent people for thinking differently. I do think that democracy is the best way of living.

But seriously, a war of that kind to bring democracy is like ****ing for virginity.

Not to mention that the justification simply was not sincere, given how many dictatorships in this world used to be or are supported by the US government and other Western governments to not let this get too one-sided.

Do I think Saddam deserves dead? Yep, I totally do. I even feel in the mood to do quite a few things to himself.
Do I believe that a state, or an institution has the right to give death to a man (no matter how much he deserves it) and still claim to bring democracy to a country? Nope, I do not.

[tutrgrrl-91]

okay so im againdt the capital punishment adn he did deserve all that he got but it was very unfair that it had to be on a festive day for the muslims!

[zozo]

kay i respect your view and i do care for you but u r wronge!!!!!
you didnt live in iraq when saddam was judging so u dont have the right to talk about our life here u dont know anything!!!anything!!
i wanna tell u all about how was horrible our lives at that time because i dont know how to start?? and its worse now but believe me saddam isnt better than bush!!
most of the iraqis were sooo poor and there were few cars in the streets u dont know and its so crowded now because they made the streets tight bcoz there were not many cars and we had no electricity while we are the OIL country...we had no internet and no satalite and moooore and more!!
besides all that many ppl were killed everyday with out they know or anyone know why they killed!!
and saddams prisons were worse that guantanamo!!
and all this happenning to iraq because of saddam and he deserves more than death!!
please guys u all have a minds and feelings and every word i said is right cause i lived here in iraq!!

ETA:aneesa u r right hun. but he killed million ppl and i dont think he is a real muslim while islam is the religion of peace so why should we care about him...u know the eid was like two Eids by killing him!!

[tutrgrrl-91]

i cant imagine how you must feel and i know that your every word must be very true:)

[Kay]

kay i respect your view and i do care for you but u r wronge!!!!!
you didnt live in iraq when saddam was judging so u dont have the right to talk about our life here u dont know anything!!!anything!!
i wanna tell u all about how was horrible our lives at that time because i dont know how to start?? and its worse now but believe me saddam isnt better than bush!!
most of the iraqis were sooo poor and there were few cars in the streets u dont know and its so crowded now because they made the streets tight bcoz there were not many cars and we had no electricity while we are the OIL country...we had no internet and no satalite and moooore and more!!
besides all that many ppl were killed everyday with out they know or anyone know why they killed!!
and saddams prisons were worse that guantanamo!!
and all this happenning to iraq because of saddam and he deserves more than death!!
please guys u all have a minds and feelings and every word i said is right cause i lived here in iraq!!

ETA:aneesa u r right hun. but he killed million ppl and i dont think he is a real muslim while islam is the religion of peace so why should we care about him...u know the eid was like two Eids by killing him!!

Are you honestly saying that over all life was better NOW than it was when Saddam was around?
& if it was than why didnt anyone fight him? Dont tell me it wasnt possible it is, many countries freed themselves, all over the world..all so poor and they still did it.
everyone suffered poverty, I lived in Yemen until I was 10 and although my family was rich I saw the suffering, I saw the poverty, I saw how people had no water for days, yes no water, no electricity..and Marab has enoguh oil to make it all possible, but they didn't. Goverments suck in countries but all they have to do is fight.

I understand that I dont know exactly how life was in Iraq with Saddam around, and no I wont pretend to imagine how life is now, but the war just put a spark to a bigger fire. Now Iraq is divided into 2, same nation, same people, but against each other. Is that really freedom?

The day every troop is home safe, and children arnt dying in the street, thats the day when anyone can turn to me and tell me that this was worth it.

[Kari]

Well, apparently the situation had be changed, I really cannot imagine what it must have been like to live in a climate of such hatred and danger.
Just this war seems by far the last thing that shall bring real stable democracy anytime soon.

[*Ashlee*]

did anyone watch it, kind of creepy....

[Kari]

I did not and I am not going to, for I believe I might throw up.

[zozo]

oh i didnt say thats the sittiuation is good now.....and about fighting him u have to know that many ppl tried but they are all killed now and i think u know the revolation happenned in 1991 he was about falling but the american helped him and that was really bad....u can imaggine kay and kari u cant imagine how life was sooo hard here....we were rich but we saw many ppl killed and one of them my uncle and believe me with out any reason....the iraqi ppl suffered so much and they still suffering!!

[Kari]

As I said, I cannot at all imagine it. I live in a wealthy European country and always have. I have lived here for all my life and compared to living in Iraq I think living here in a family with massive problems is paradise. I really do.
So, I cannot judge anyhow on the way of life there. I still believe that this war is morally absolutely not justified or that the justification used is false.

But I do believe Kara is able to imagine that, for she did experience something alike.

[Kay]

which is more..the suffering now or than?

[eta]
can I honestly imagine it? know how it feels? No not really, my family was quite rich & I was too young to see teh full extant of it all, so I can not honestly say I know what its like, or how it feels like, but fact wise it seems much worse now

[zozo]

i lived in a very rich family as well...but its not all about richness u know and sometimes i think that its the same but i dont know im so confused!!
you guys i respect u all specially kay cause i didnt talk to kara before and id like to...soooo i dont want to argue with u about a rubbish dead man but i wish to american to leave us alone soon!!

[Heather]

What has killing Saddam done? Seriously? Apart from killing INNOCENT people.

Everyone is standing back and judging him for his acts, was he wrong? hell yes he was but he ran a good country, if you stayed away from politics you were fine. Iraqi people were fine, they didnt ask for help from anyone. families were together, they had jobs, each family had a car, they had education, they had everything they needed to live a GOOD life, as long as they stayed away from politics they were fine. & now, everyone is dying, and all for nothing..when will there be peace again? when will families be back together?

& I know some will say thats not REAL freedon, people should be able to get involoved in politics and not fear for their lives and yes they should, but in every country there are boundries, were the ones in Iraq worse? probably but they were there.

In Yemen the ways were MUCH worse, if you crossed the line you didnt just get killed, or tortured in the way Iraqies were itw as so very much worse, & no one got involved. Wanna know what happened? They people got their way in teh end and now they live in less harsh times, life is still a bitch but THOUSANDS didnt die for no reason, peace wasnt taken away because the ****ing US feared for what they could do.

This wasnt a war to free them, or just for oil, there was Iran & Kiewit to be taken into a count, well ****ing well done a country is ruined because Bush thought he should free them from the misery.

Was what Saddam doing right? No
Did the US have any right to start a war? No
guantanamo bay anyone?

p.s.

now tahts what I'll be singing the day Bush dies

First of all...innocent people? What about all the innocent people that Saddam killed, tortured, maimed and executed as a national pasttime? Are you going to seriously sit there and tell me that the world would be better off with him in it? That man was not human, he was a monster.

He ran a good country? Do me a favor. Look up totalitarianism. Rule through TERROR. Thats exactly what he did. The only difference between him and Hitler or Stalin, is that he had less of a population to work with.

They didnt ask for help? When we invaded after 9/11, they were afraid that we would LEAVE them with Saddham still in power. Read the articles, watch the news footage. The Sunnis wanted to be free. And the Kurds, they will always thank us for ousting Saddam, and executing him.

As for your comments on Bush. If 9/11 hadnt happened, we never would have invaded the Middle East. And what are we doing there now? Oh yeah, stablizing the country, and the region. Silly me, for forgetting that.

And dont even start bashing the US military, or you will have an enemy on your hands. Or do I have to remind you that my baby brother served a year in Baghdad's red zone. If I dont go off on Clinton (like I would like to), then dont you go off on Bush. You dont like him, thats your perrogative. But he is not a monster. He is trying to keep him nation safe.

Maybe you should go watch World Trade Center. A film made by one of the most liberal directors ever to draw breath. My favorite line, when the towers fall, "Whether or not you realize it, we are at war."

As for why I am pro-death penalty. I believe in Hell. And I also believe that certain people are beyond redemption. THe pain and suffering that someone like Saddham is facing there, is much worse than anything he could have faced in prison.

[Faith]

As for your comments on Bush. If 9/11 hadnt happened, we never would have invaded the Middle East. And what are we doing there now? Oh yeah, stablizing the country, and the region. Silly me, for forgetting that.

This is the part that gets me though. Some people feel the need (not directed at you Heather) to go on and on about how the people of Iraq should be thankful, that the war was necessary, that the US invaded to help them and to rebuild their nation. But as you said above - no 9/11, no invasion of the Middle East. This was a war based on the simple premise of revenge, and I'm not down with that.

[Kari]

Nobody did bas the US military as far as I can remember. Actually I did clarify that that is the opposite of what I wanted to say. Whatever...

[Faith]

I think that was directed at Kara though I don't recall her attacking the military either. You can support the soliders without supporting the war Heather

[zozo]

First of all...innocent people? What about all the innocent people that Saddam killed, tortured, maimed and executed as a national pasttime? Are you going to seriously sit there and tell me that the world would be better off with him in it? That man was not human, he was a monster.

He ran a good country? Do me a favor. Look up totalitarianism. Rule through TERROR. Thats exactly what he did. The only difference between him and Hitler or Stalin, is that he had less of a population to work with.

They didnt ask for help? When we invaded after 9/11, they were afraid that we would LEAVE them with Saddham still in power. Read the articles, watch the news footage. The Sunnis wanted to be free. And the Kurds, they will always thank us for ousting Saddam, and executing him.

As for your comments on Bush. If 9/11 hadnt happened, we never would have invaded the Middle East. And what are we doing there now? Oh yeah, stablizing the country, and the region. Silly me, for forgetting that.

And dont even start bashing the US military, or you will have an enemy on your hands. Or do I have to remind you that my baby brother served a year in Baghdad's red zone. If I dont go off on Clinton (like I would like to), then dont you go off on Bush. You dont like him, thats your perrogative. But he is not a monster. He is trying to keep him nation safe.

Maybe you should go watch World Trade Center. A film made by one of the most liberal directors ever to draw breath. My favorite line, when the towers fall, "Whether or not you realize it, we are at war."

As for why I am pro-death penalty. I believe in Hell. And I also believe that certain people are beyond redemption. THe pain and suffering that someone like Saddham is facing there, is much worse than anything he could have faced in prison.

i agree with you!!

[Faith]

I don't :)

All types of people to make a world

[zozo]

i dont say that bush is good but saddam isnt better and u make me angry cause u r talking and dont know anything about how the iraqi ppl were as saddams was judging!!
anyway good luck 4 u all!!

[Faith]

I have never once commented saying Saddam was better than Bush. If you look back through this thread, you will note that I have said repeatedly that I wish he had been made to rot for the rest of his life in a jail cell facing up to his crimes, which to some, is more inhumane than killing him.

Yes, this effects you more - but we are all effected by Saddam's actions, so we are allowed to make judgement - no matter HOW wrong those judgements may be. This effects the majority of the world, you can't ban people from the outskirts of a situation from making opinions on it, it's nonsense. So though I agree, yes, it effects you more, I don't feel you have a right to abuse anyone that has an opinion on the matter - I'm offended by your attitude, to be honest.

I am sorry though, if my negative stance towards war has directly hurt you.

I'm not sorry for having that stance

[zozo]

im not with the war!!!
and this case is really complicated!!
but u said that u all affected by saddams actions...i wanna know how did u affect??and what were the affects??

[tutrgrrl-91]

ive changed my mine!i dont think he should have had to face the capital punishment!i think he should have had life imprisonment!:(im sorry if some of you guys dont agree!

[Kay]

I think that was directed at Kara though I don't recall her attacking the military either. You can support the soliders without supporting the war Heather

Thank you!

First of all...innocent people? What about all the innocent people that Saddam killed, tortured, maimed and executed as a national pasttime? Are you going to seriously sit there and tell me that the world would be better off with him in it? That man was not human, he was a monster.

How many people have Saddam killed? no one knows for sure that much is true but compare that to the amount killed now, to the terror happening now. You can't sit there and tell me that so far this war has done anything good to teh country. It took away the killer yes but it didnt take away the killing and until the day comes about when that happens, than I'll say fine I was wrong.

He ran a good country? Do me a favor. Look up totalitarianism. Rule through TERROR. Thats exactly what he did. The only difference between him and Hitler or Stalin, is that he had less of a population to work with.

I don't, though maybe it came out as I do, think that Saddam is a good ruler, or that he should still run his country. But I do stand by my believe that while he ran it wrong, he ran it far better than now.
To remove Hitler it took a world war with millions dying, it does make me wonder how many will have to die to take Saddam down..cause so far it doesn't look pretty, nor does it look like the end is anywhere near for someone to have a guess at how many people will end up dead.
Oh & the whole terror thing..okay fine, I do agree it was appalling what he did, but who's taking responsibility for the terror occuring now? The deaths, the rapes..innocent people are still being terrorised.

They didnt ask for help? When we invaded after 9/11, they were afraid that we would LEAVE them with Saddham still in power. Read the articles, watch the news footage. The Sunnis wanted to be free. And the Kurds, they will always thank us for ousting Saddam, and executing him.

Than why did you leave them? If they needed help, what exactly makes it different now, at least than you already had power, now it starts from zero.
After the war between America and whomever it is against now cause frankly I cant say I know ends, the war between the 2 groups will still be there, more so now as the Saddam supporters will be even more outraged.

As for your comments on Bush. If 9/11 hadnt happened, we never would have invaded the Middle East. And what are we doing there now? Oh yeah, stablizing the country, and the region. Silly me, for forgetting that.

It was THE WHOLE of the Middle east that attacked you, for the love of God it was ONE man, go after him not after half of the world. He isnt even in Iraq. Plus wasn't it that the war started to free the Iraqies not because of 9/11? hmm maybe I just heard wrong. over and over and over and over again.
and seriously 20000 soliders are going to that how?

And dont even start bashing the US military, or you will have an enemy on your hands. Or do I have to remind you that my baby brother served a year in Baghdad's red zone. If I dont go off on Clinton (like I would like to), then dont you go off on Bush. You dont like him, thats your perrogative. But he is not a monster. He is trying to keep him nation safe.

an enemy? Tell me you are joking, because if I dont know any better that will sound like a threat & a lame one at that because seriously what can you do to me?
& No you dont need to remind me that your brother is a solider, I am fully aware of that, and I have at no point attacked the solider who are fighting to keep their country & Iraq safe and I have enough sense and moral, even if your brother wasn't there, to ever do that. I have great respect for soliders who go and fight and put their lives in danger. The adminstration behind it however, the bosses who sit & just give orders, them I have something against. The concept of war that I have something against, and yes you can be against war but support the soliders.
I simply made a comment on Bush, I personally dont understand why it is so appallingly wrong to state your opinion on such figures on the world, yes I know bashing is against the rules etc etc, but one would think that such important figures in the world you can state your opinion without everyone getting so angry and emotional about it.

Maybe you should go watch World Trade Center. A film made by one of the most liberal directors ever to draw breath. My favorite line, when the towers fall, "Whether or not you realize it, we are at war."

As for why I am pro-death penalty. I believe in Hell. And I also believe that certain people are beyond redemption. THe pain and suffering that someone like Saddham is facing there, is much worse than anything he could have faced in prison.

I am actually pro-death penalty too..its the way this one was carried out that made it so wrong and took away from the credit & good it did

[danyjoncew]

First of all...innocent people? What about all the innocent people that Saddam killed, tortured, maimed and executed as a national pasttime? Are you going to seriously sit there and tell me that the world would be better off with him in it? That man was not human, he was a monster.

Saddam was no monster, he was human... everything that can go wrong with humans, but human still. Human beings are pretty nasty, we don't need to use the word "monster" to cover, we're not living in a movie. And no, no world is better off with people like Saddam in it.


As for your comments on Bush. If 9/11 hadnt happened, we never would have invaded the Middle East. And what are we doing there now? Oh yeah, stablizing the country, and the region. Silly me, for forgetting that.

Oh yes you would have invaded the Middle East. And USA really needs "stablizing the region" since it's a very wealthy one :D.

Maybe you should go watch World Trade Center. A film made by one of the most liberal directors ever to draw breath. My favorite line, when the towers fall, "Whether or not you realize it, we are at war."

And he was right, you're always at war. And I'm not even talking about the bombs your country drops every single day on countries you've never heard of. USA is USA's worst enemy.



I'm happy Iraq is free from Saddam. I don't support the hanging. And I still think this war was wrong and really not that well handled.

[Heather]

Ok...so last night I was in a really bad mood, and my post reflected that. Now that Im much calmer than I was last night, let me reply.

Gem,
Whoever's post I was responding to, mentioning Guantanimo Bay...which, was maligning the military without coming right out and saying it. A subtle dig, if you will. And I dont stand by that.

I also have an honest question for you. How can someone, anyone, say that they support the troops but not their mission? Do any of you truly realize how the constant criticisms about them doing their job, effects their psyche? We've had US senators equate their action with those of Nazi Stormtroopers. And those same senators turn around and say, "I support the troops." I just dont get it. Me, I will support all of them until they are safely home. They are doing their jobs, like most people do. It doesnt define them, but it does effect them. I know soldiers who loved Iraq, and the Iraqi people, and I know soldiers who equate it to hell on Earth. So how do you criticize the man and not the mission? How do you seperate the two, because I cant.

How many people have Saddam killed? no one knows for sure that much is true but compare that to the amount killed now, to the terror happening now. You can't sit there and tell me that so far this war has done anything good to teh country. It took away the killer yes but it didnt take away the killing and until the day comes about when that happens, than I'll say fine I was wrong.
Unmarked mass graves? Details of torture? Do me a favor, read the Princess Diaries. One of them in particular is quite telling. Its the story of a woman who's family befriended Saddam during his rise to power, and just what happened to all of them. She is lucky that she is still alive.

To remove Hitler it took a world war with millions dying, it does make me wonder how many will have to die to take Saddam down..cause so far it doesn't look pretty, nor does it look like the end is anywhere near for someone to have a guess at how many people will end up dead.

Hitler didnt wait long before invading other countries. Saddam tried that in 1990, when he invaded Kuwait and tried to steal their oil fields. We stopped him, and now have a life long ally.

Than why did you leave them? If they needed help, what exactly makes it different now, at least than you already had power, now it starts from zero.
We didnt leave them voluntarily. HW Bush wanted to stay the course, but he was facing a Congress that wouldnt support him, and was forced to withdraw the troops. We deserted the Iraqis when they needed us most. I cant help but think that that act is coming back to bite us all in the ass.

HE WHOLE of the Middle east that attacked you, for the love of God it was ONE man, go after him not after half of the world. He isnt even in Iraq. Plus wasn't it that the war started to free the Iraqies not because of 9/11? hmm maybe I just heard wrong. over and over and over and over again.
and seriously 20000 soliders are going to that how?
It was not one man, my God, what do you have to say to get through to people. It was a group of fanatics, out in hiding, who's soul mission is to destroy Western civilization. If they just hated the US, then why target Israel, why bomb London, and Madrid? They want all of us dead. Why can you not get that? If you want to sit back and wait them for to attack your country next, go right ahead. I would rather take the attack to them. The best offense is a good defense. But then again, 9/11 doesnt haunt you everyday like it does me. You didnt have the fear that day if knowing whether or not your cousins (NYPD) were still alive. You didnt have your uncle pull over 800 people out of the wreckage and across the Hudson to safety. You didnt listen to him when he finally called three days after the first plane hit, and wept.

So, yeah. I want them gone. I dont mourn Saddam, just like I didnt mourn the death of any of the terrorists either in Iraq or Afghanistan. They are pure evil, plain and simple.

And, danyjoncew, Im not even going to bother.

[Quinton]

I was told by an Iraqi friend (and this is purely heresay at this point) that the final words to come from Sadaam's mouth were Eat Shit.

Whether those were the actual final words of his I don't know but that's what I've been told.

[Heather]

I dont know why, but that made me want to laugh. Seems kind of fitting. Karma, and all that.

[Jon]

Hehe you know I find that funny too.

[Ashlyn]

There is no doubt that Saddam was a very evil man, and that if ANYBODY deserves capital punishment (which i'm personally against) he did. The practice of hanging, however, is archaic and disgusting. I just read today that another person hung there was accidentally beheaded, and that is simply horrific.

So how do you criticize the man and not the mission? How do you seperate the two, because I cant.

I assume you meant criticize the mission and not the man. Honestly, I do think that it's sad that going against the war lowers troop morale. However, when people say they support the troops, I think they mean they support men that are simply following orders, even if they disagree with those orders.

I think part of supporting our troops means wanting to keep them out of danger unless it is absolutely necessary, and there is certainly a considerable argument that it was not at all necessary. A "strike first" defense is just another term for an unwarranted attack.

Some good has come out of Iraq. Clearly. Saddam's removal is cause for celebration. Civil war, however, is not. The fact that our invasion of Iraq has created a breeding ground for terrorism, something we are supposed to be fighting against, is not.

... and, the fact that money and troops are being spent on a "liberation" effort of a country that was not a threat to the United States, while Osama Bin Laden has not been captured and our President willingly says that he doesn't think about him that much is unacceptable.

Is it selfish for an American to still feel unsafe when the man who actually orchastrated attacks against America is no longer on the mind of the Commander in Chief? I do not think so.

World Trade Center, is a great film, and it's line about war is fitting. However, as there is NO connection between Iraq and those attacks, it doesn't matter here. Yes, we were at war the moment those towers were hit, but, our leaders decided to focus on a (1) WMD Search, or wait, "Liberation Effort" instead. The war that was started that day remains unfinished, out of sight, and out of mind, and seems to be, to the president, only a convenient fuel to the fight he would rather fight.

[Faith]

Heather, I think it's possible to distinguish between the two. I support politicians in general, for going out there and trying to make a difference in our country as they see fit - however, I do not support the British conservative party because of their views. It can apply to plenty of things

I don't agree with war, I definately don't agree with this war. And this is coming from a big Tony Blair supporter - whoa, go Labour! However I do support the soldiers - they are doing what they feel is necessary, and as they did not declare this war, their aim is quite commendable. If criticism of the war disheartens the troops, then that is a shame, but it can not be expected that everyone is going to support a war. Nothing ever works like that in politics - that doesn't mean you can't wish the soldiers themselves well. I fell for a guy that was joining the army, many years ago. Just because he is fighting in a war I don't believe in, doesn't mean I don't want it to be a war he succeeds in.

Zozo - do you think we would be here discussing it if this didn't have an impact on us too? The trial and death of Saddam brings into question our whole society, and shows how questionable the moral stance of society is. Everyone lives with the fear of terror threats. I have never said that what we feel in relation to this is ANYTHING in relation to what you do, but it's not on to imply we have no right to an opinion. It's like saying, 'oh God, that guy killed his wife and kids? That's really rough, but I better not have an opinion on it because I didn't experience it myself.'

[Kari]

I just refuse to believe you cannot support a soldier without supporting the war. It is two things. I mean, I might have agreed with Afghanistan, for instance, at least to a greater extent than I do with Iraq. I also agree with soliders who go to foreign reasons to protect or observe etc, etc.
I am, however, a pacifist and particularly Iraq seems disastrous to me. Now, soliders are people, they get orders, they do their jobs. They might be send to a mission I agree with and to one I do not agree with. They might even be send to a mission they do not agree with.
Still, that does not mean that you cannot respect them as people who do their work and who do it will and bravely.

[amberdawn]

However, as there is NO connection between Iraq and those attacks, it doesn't matter here.
Wrong. Saddam was letting those terrorist groups (Osama's terrorists) hide out in Iraq. THEY are who we went after in Iraq at first.

[danyjoncew]

You know, this thread is actually getting really funny. I'll make some popcorn.

[Heather]

I appreciate the response, and get what you are saying. I guess I just cant seperate the two, because I know how it effects them. Do I want this over? Yes. Do I want them home, hell yes. But I would never criticize what they are doing over there, because they have my full support.

[Ashlyn]

Wrong. Saddam was letting those terrorist groups (Osama's terrorists) hide out in Iraq. THEY are who we went after in Iraq at first.

Funny, I thought it was WMDs we were after. I guess with all the propaganda the administration threw our way it's hard to determine.

The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks seems to disagree with you, however, on the link, and even George W. Bush won't even fess up to ever claiming there was a connection.

... and even if you were correct, in what world is it more important to "get" the guy who let Osama's terrorists hide out in Iraq than to actually GET Osama. I hate how there has been no reponse to Bush's statement that he "barely thinks about [Osama]" when it is OSAMA who orchastrated the attacks.

[Faith]

But I would never criticize what they are doing over there, because they have my full support.

It's not necessarily criticizing what they do though - it's criticizing the people that sent them there

[MiloIsOnFire69]

he deserved it!

[Faith]

Where do you draw the line then?

[amberdawn]

No, WMDs weren't the only thing we went after. And I've got that wrong, hidden terrorists weren't the first reason we bombed Iraq (however one of the most important), but it was also because Saddam wasn't responding to sanctions against him that he had on him for years (along with the fact that HE DID let terrorists into his country and we did think that there were WMDs).

Honestly though, I don't buy the fact that people argue that there were never weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. There may not have been when we arrived, but they were there at one time or another. Mustard gas (which is what Saddam used to kill thousands of his people) is considered in my opinion, a weapon of mass destruction. It has the power to kill thousands, and it did in Iraq. But really, this is just my opinion.

[Faith]

There were no weapons there at the time Bush said there was.

Case. Point.

[amberdawn]

LOL, I'm not argue with you. There's no point.

[Heather]

Actually...I saw this thing on the history channel about Decoding the Bible. How there are codes in the bible, that predict the future.

Now, personally, I always thought the WMDs were smuggled out of Iraq before we invaded, since Saddham knew we were coming.

And this one bible code, said, "Weapons of mass destruction...Damascus."

I find that pretty interesting, since alot of the insurgents who came to Iraq after the invasion hail from Syria.

We need to remember. Just because we didnt find them, doesnt mean he didnt have them.

and even if you were correct, in what world is it more important to "get" the guy who let Osama's terrorists hide out in Iraq than to actually GET Osama. I hate how there has been no reponse to Bush's statement that he "barely thinks about [Osama]" when it is OSAMA who orchastrated the attacks.
Well, maybe if Clinton had taken Osama when he was offered to him on a platter, none of this would have happened. There would have been no 9/11, no London or Madrid bombings, no USS Cole.

But I keep forgetting, Clinton is perfect, and Bush is the anti-Christ. *sarcasm*

[Jon]

I have to say this and I'll continue to say this regarding WMDs. As Heather said, because nobody found them when they searched, does NOT mean there never were any. Just not any at that time. If someone (ANYONE) seriously believes Saddam never had WMDs, then I have a bridge to sell you. Two actually.

Now about Heather's theory, I personally have thought the same. Saddam knew we were coming in, he could have easily smuggled them out.

[Heather]

If someone (ANYONE) seriously believes Saddam never had WMDs, then I have a bridge to sell you. Two actually.
Would one of them happen to be the Golden Gate?

[Jon]

In fact one of them does happen to be the Golden Gate. Do I hear any offers? Bids open at $1 ;)

[Faith]

LOL, I'm not argue with you. There's no point.

It's not an argument, it's a debate ;)

[Heather]

How about a trade, Jon? I'll give you Brooklyn for Golden Gate ;)

[Ashlyn]

Actually...I saw this thing on the history channel about Decoding the Bible. How there are codes in the bible, that predict the future.

Now, personally, I always thought the WMDs were smuggled out of Iraq before we invaded, since Saddham knew we were coming.

And this one bible code, said, "Weapons of mass destruction...Damascus."

I find that pretty interesting, since alot of the insurgents who came to Iraq after the invasion hail from Syria.

We need to remember. Just because we didnt find them, doesnt mean he didnt have them.


Well, maybe if Clinton had taken Osama when he was offered to him on a platter, none of this would have happened. There would have been no 9/11, no London or Madrid bombings, no USS Cole.

But I keep forgetting, Clinton is perfect, and Bush is the anti-Christ. *sarcasm*

... and not to split hairs, but maybe if President Bush would have had had even ONE meeting on terrorism after he took office, instead of an extended vacation, perhaps this wouldn't have happened.

But, the point is, that it DID happen, and our President says he doesn't even think about the guy who did it. In what way can that not be seen as utter failure on the part of our commander in chief? It is unacceptable.

As to the WMDs, I believe that if they were there, we could find them. If they are found, I will retract much of my argument. However, blind faith and bible codes aren't enough to justify this to me.

[amberdawn]

... and not to split hairs, but maybe if President Bush would have had had even ONE meeting on terrorism after he took office, instead of an extended vacation, perhaps this wouldn't have happened.
Woah! Wait, wait, wait a minute. Are you blaming the terrorist attacks on Bush? :wtf: Or am I reading this statement wrong?

[Heather]

You're not wrong

[Ashlyn]

I'm not BLAMING them on them. I'm saying that it is quite possible that they might not have happened if our President has cared enough to hold at least one meeting on the terrorism threat.

I'm blaming Osama Bin Laden.

You know, that guy President Bush doesn't think about much.

[Heather]

See..Im sorry...I thought bashing was against FB policy.

My mistake.

If I had known that WASNT the case, I would have said that if Clinton wasnt too busy thinking with the brain in his pants during the 90s, after numerous Al Queda attacks, then maybe Bin Laden would have been extricated then, and the WTC would still be standing.

Also, he would have left behind a terrorism plan for the incumbent president (like HW did before him), rather than play practical jokes in the White House before he left, and lets not forget the midnight pardons to criminals.

Yeah, Clinton was definitely a man with his priorities in check.

It's not necessarily criticizing what they do though - it's criticizing the people that sent them there
But they dont see the difference. They get the same news we do, hear the same criticisms, and take it as criticisms on them. See my quandary?

Gem,
If you want to see how Stephen is doing...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=38224767

[Ashlyn]

I don't believe I've bashed W. In fact, I generally choose not to attack him as a person in any place, and certainly not this forum. I HAVE repeated a statement he said himself. It's not bashing to imply that he doesn't think much about the man who attacked the United States. It's something he said himself, and something nobody has yet defended.

[Heather]

Well, since I work two jobs and have a social life, I didnt hear the context of that comment. I do however, know soldiers in Afghanistan, so I find that comment hard to believe. At least in the context of which you speak of.

[*Ashlee*]

I certainly do not blame the troops for doing what their country asks and expect from them. I hate that they take it personally. I support why they do it. Like others in this thread, I dont necessarily support the reasons behind the person ordering this fight. I dont support the innocent people that have to die on both ends. I dont support the media that is essentially made to cover up much of the truth about how much damage America is doing in Iraq, despite its reasons. The media is made to do this. Its unfortunate that in order for any member of the media to go into the field, they must be accompanied and what is aired is basically decided by the United States. It just seems a little fishy to me. The propoganda has obviously been effective in some ways, yet not so much in others.

[Heather]

Actually, if the media is guilty of anything, its of covering up all the progress being done over there, and all the good being accomplished.

[*Ashlee*]

In my media studies course, run by someone who works for a news network here and has been there, and had co-workers go over, it is so strict to what can be revealed to the public. Things that make the US/Canada look bad are to be kept to an extreme minimum, If you try to go against it, you are blacked out.

[Heather]

Then, please explain to me, why the progress being made is never covered? Because without going into details, I have firsthand knowledge of some pretty amazing progress.

[*Ashlee*]

Not once did I say there was no progress, not once. The only thing I said pertaining to this issue is that all the bad stuff the IRaqis are doing leaks through the media but if the US screws up or they do something stupid and uncalled for MOST the time it stays under wraps.

According to my media teacher they do not overly express progress in some areas because people here will want their troops to come home even faster if that much progress is being made. The closer things get to being stable and to being a democracy over there means the sooner Bush has to get the troops out.

[Heather]

I never said that you said that, or even elluded to it. Please dont put words in my mouth. I was talking about the media. All their reports are of doom and gloom. They never talk about the hope, the progress, the good being accomplished.

Honestly, I dont care what your professor said. The fact is that they are playing up the bad and downplaying the good.

[*Ashlee*]

That was my point :that they were downplaying the good and up-playing the bad, i just emphasized that it is the Iraqi's that are being portrayed more badly, and the US mistakes and terrible behaviour that is not being revealed.

Of course the media can not talk about the good stuff and the progress made. Who wants to watch positive news? They want to watch sex, violence, war, murder. That is just the way it is in North American society.Everything has to be sexed up or there is no ratings therefore there is no news. People dont want rainbows and kittens, they want blood and gore.

[Heather]

Of course the media can not talk about the good stuff and the progress made. Who wants to watch positive news? They want to watch sex, violence, war, murder. That is just the way it is in North American society.Everything has to be sexed up or there is no ratings therefore there is no news. People dont want rainbows and kittens, they want blood and gore.
Who wants to watch positive news about Iraq? A hell of a lot of us, thats who. The administration is being condemned to hell and back, because all people hear about is the bad. They dont know about the good. And people like me, who do know, cant talk about it. It would be nice if the press would step up and do their job, and, oh, I dont know....be objective for a change?

The simple fact is that the mainstream media COULD report on the progress. They simply choose not to.

[*Ashlee*]

Greater numbers have proven, especially in America(at least in accordance to the Media studies we have seen) that they do not want to read about happy endings. THey may want the happy endings but it is not what they want to watch the news for and read the papers etc

They are also in an extremely tight spot because they report what they are told to report or they dont report at all. Its extremely unethical but it works that way in NA. It is one of the reasons my media prof is at school. He only reports part time now so he can raise awareness and teach us to be very critical about what we see in the news because it is being so unbelievable controlled. That is what happens when a handful of media congolmerates control it.

I honestly do not like it any more then you do. I would like to have focus on the good instead of the media encouraging dislike on the violence and innocent people killed in Iraq by the insurgents or how we should hate the American government for their choices.

I wish there were more profs going around opening the publics eye to the media because these courses have certainly opened mine. I challenge what I hear now, even if only for a second. Its unfortunate really that the integrity of reporters and journalists is being dropped down by those out to make a profit

[Webeh]

It would be nice if the press would step up and do their job, and, oh, I dont know....be objective for a change?

I doubt that'll ever happen. Not when the news is all about selling a product, the newscast.

Can you tell that I'm not very optimistic. ;)

[Faith]

IRT the topic: What gets me about this is the people that say, 'oh, well, I don't believe in capital punishment, but I guess in this case, the guy deserved it...'

If you believe in capital punishment, fine, that is your perogative. Just as mine is to be morally opposed to it, regardless of the circumstances. There is no grey area when it comes to this subject!

You say, 'well, Saddam was a bad, bad man, he deserved it.' Where do you draw the line? Does a woman that shot her husband, and then smothered her twin babies, deserve death? Does a serial child abuser deserve death? Does a serial killer who targets the elderly deserve death? Where is the line?

I honestly believe that there is something wrong if you think, 'well, I don't believe in the death penalty, but in this case...' yet you don't think murderers and rapists and paedophiles that work on a smaller scale deserve the same treatment. Saddam deserves death because he did it more? Not because he did it at all?

I just don't think there is a grey area.


Heather: His profile is set to private so I will try add him, I'm glad he is alright :)

[danyjoncew]

I honestly believe that there is something wrong if you think, 'well, I don't believe in the death penalty, but in this case...'


Thank you! I agree 100%.

[Kari]

So do I. It is quite funny to ask a school class who is for and who against capital punishment, then present an awful case and suddenly half of them have changed their mind.

Either you do believe, the state has the right to decide over people's lives, or it does not.

[Ashlyn]

I kind of understand it, actually. In fact, I believe that Saddam deserved it.

I believe a lot of people deserve it.

I still don't think it's the government's right to kill people.

[Kari]

I am exactly of the same opinion.
I would maybe have quite a lot of fun doing some nasty things to Saddam myself. I just refuse the idea that the administration has any right take these decisions.

[*Ashlee*]

IF it is for the greater good then I have to say I agree it is for the best. If the world isin harms way, then maybe getting rid of the problem is the best solution.

[danyjoncew]

I don't think Saddam being alive was the problem.

[amberdawn]

I am exactly of the same opinion.
I would maybe have quite a lot of fun doing some nasty things to Saddam myself. I just refuse the idea that the administration has any right take these decisions.
What administration? Bush's? The Iraqi government were the ones who sentenced Saddam to death, not President Bush's administration.

*Not sure if that's what you meant. Please correct me if I'm wrong*:)

[Heather]

Excellent point. All we did was capture him. The Iraqi government, and people are the ones who sentenced him. Not the US.

[danyjoncew]

"The Iraqi government, and people" ?

[Heather]

Yes, the Iraqi government and people. In case you havent noticed, they do have a government, that the people elected.

[danyjoncew]

Hee! Funny.

[Kari]

That was not what I meant. Than my argument would be pointless.
I do think no administration, no government has the right to condemn somebody to death. It is not about Bush...or the Iraqi government. It is a general principle of mine.

[Heather]

Well, thats your perrogative, Kari. They just didnt agree with you. And I cant say Im sorry that he's gone.

Which is actually funny. Because when Timothy McVeigh was executed, I had mixed feelings. Part of me was glad, because of the heinous crime he committed, but another part of me felt guilty. Like, who are we to decide who lives and dies?

I didnt have that issue with Saddham, though.

[Kari]

Well, who are actually they...that is still only some.

See, I don't get why people don't get me with this. I do not at all feel bad about Saddam dying. He was a hideous bastard, an evil man, somebody who absolutely deserved death.

But what is a government to decide that. If I lived in a state where I put my trust in the hands of a government, I would not be willing to give them the right to decide on a such thing, principally. No matter whether it is Saddam or a rapist or any murderer.

[amberdawn]

A government should have the right to decide that when thousands of their people are killed in cold blood by someone specifically (which is what Saddam did).

[Faith]

Why?

How is that different from someone that just kills a handle full of people?

I never knew that with murder it was all about quantity

[amberdawn]

That is not what I said, so don't you dare put words in my mouth. I feel the same about any murderer who has no remorse for what he/she's done.

[Faith]

Sorry for misreading your post

(but calm down! You seem to get riled awful easy. It's only a message board ;) )

There are people on this board though that say they don't believe in the death penalty, but that say they believe in it in this case. It's bollocks, and a slippery slope. Where does it end? Kill murderers, but not paedophiles? Kill paedophiles, but not rapists? Where is the line drawn between a crime punishable by death and one that is not? When it the line drawn as to whether someone can or will spend their life repenting for what they have done? What is the time limit for when someone has had enough time to be remorseful?

Slippery slope. Playing God doesn't do it for me

[Danizinha]

There are people on this board though that say they don't believe in the death penalty, but that say they believe in it in this case. It's bollocks, and a slippery slope. Where does it end? Kill murderers, but not paedophiles? Kill paedophiles, but not rapists? Where is the line drawn between a crime punishable by death and one that is not? When it the line drawn as to whether someone can or will spend their life repenting for what they have done? What is the time limit for when someone has had enough time to be remorseful?

Slippery slope. Playing God doesn't do it for me

I'm with you there. As much as a part of me thinks that what Saddam did is completely wrong and unrepairable, I do not think I have the right to judge him or decide his future, nor do I think any other human being has this right (no matter it's Saddam or any other person).

Sometimes I think people like him deserve to die, but I realize I'm not God and that no human being should take the life of other human, even if he/she has done it to others. Violence doesn't solve violence. I think a life sentence would be more appropriate to criminals like him.

[Kari]

How does a government have that right? Seriously, it is murder. Just because the person you killed deserved it, it is still murder.
Self justice is not legal either, because it is...oh, right, murder.