Thoughts on Immigrants #2

[Heather]

Old Thread (http://www.fanbolt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38664)

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[Webeh]

Er... Can I start a new topic to discuss?

How do you all feel about dual citizenship?

Previously, I had no opinion on this until this past summer where I saw the priviledge of Canadian citizenship be abused.

How can this be abused? Here's an example.

You immigrate to Canada, so you can get the citizenship. Then, you leave and you don't come back. When you run into a tight spot (arrest or a sudden flash of violence), you expect the Canadian government to come in and spend a lot of $$$/manpower to bail you out, without have ever paid any of the Canadian taxes (or stayed in Canada). On top of that, there is little appreciation (from what I've seen) given to the overworked embassy members who put in all that hard work to help you out. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture?

If this were up to me, I'd either eliminate dual citizenship completely or enforce a rule where you must live in Canada to have this priviledge.

Any comments or criticisms?

[Heather]

Im fine with dual citizenship. If I were my mother, I would also be a citizen of Ireland right now. I also have a cousin who has dual citizenship in the US and Belgium.

But it depends on the situation, also. For example, my mom, as a second generation Irish-American, can be a citizen in Ireland. I think that is wonderful. My cousin was a military brat, born in Belgium. When he turns 18, he decides what country he wants to be a citizen of.

I dont think it should be a universal thing. But if its family related, Im all for it. It goes to the love of history thing. To be considered a citizen in a country I admire, that my ancestors lived, that would mean alot to me. I have never lived in Ireland, but to be considered a citizen by their laws because of my Pa....that would be amazing.

[Danizinha]

I don't really know where I stand in this because I'm have dual citizenship myself. My mother is American, so I have both Brazilian and American citizenship.

I don't really see that abuse affecting the country negatively, because not that many people get the citizenship, and I think most of the people who do get it, worked hard for it and won't just go back to their country unless they really have to.

[Kari]

I love the concept of dual citizenship. For I am now planning to spend the rest of my life in a country other than the one I have been born in, I think there would absolutely be a point in me obtaining that country's citizenship.
However, I still feel like somebody who was born and raised in Germany, I have my roots and my culture there. It would be quite nice.

LMAO! Wyoming?!? You have got to be the ONLY person I have ever heard say they wouldn't mind immigrating to Wyoming! That is because of a play in the theater I saw the other night, where a man wanted to take his girl to Wyoming and build a hut there and hunt fishes etc.
Well, if the love of my life was in it, I would at least consider Wyoming for more than ten seconds.

oh Kari, really? you may immigrate? cool, coolYup, to Britain.

Even if said someone is breaking our laws. How are babies breaking laws?

Even before Bush, and before the war against terror, certain nations spit on Americans who visited their cities. That is not something that sits well with me. Im proud to be an American. Im also proud to have ancestors who lived in Ireland, Scotland, Czechoslovakia, and Slovakia. I love those countries as well. I dont think the US is the end all and be all. I hate that we are the Superpower, and I would love to go back to isolationism. There has always been anti-americanism, since Bush it has grown way stronger. However, I swear to you that the great majority of people here (for example) would never treat American tourists in such a manner. There is a minority who would and I condemn them for doing so. However, it is usually the loudest you hear scream even if they are few and if they are idiots.

I personally dislike just one thing about American tourists and that is how they take many things for granted, which cannot be generalized of course.

And I bet you're going to be doing it legally.
You bet I will, because, you know, I am living in this very rich country and I shall go to a university and I never suffered from real hunger, always had a shelter (except that night where I slept in a cold, cold car) and had running water and electricity.
Sure, I am going to immigrate legally. I never did promote illegal immigration in this thread. All I am saying that those people are still human beings and individuals and that there are reasons.

You do realize that Wyoming is a red state, right?
Of course I do...I thought that would underline the aspect that I would do it for my great eternal passionate love. Moving to New York or Boston would not be a big deal there. But Wyoming...I mean...Wyoming.

[Webeh]

I don't really see that abuse affecting the country negatively, because not that many people get the citizenship, and I think most of the people who do get it, worked hard for it and won't just go back to their country unless they really have to.

But, this has actually affected my country negatively. This past summer, the Canadian government spent millions to move thousands of people out of a country of war. Generally, this wouldn't bother me if they were all visiting Canadians. But in this case, most came to Canada to get the citizenship (just for the benefits) and then moved away right after to never be seen again. They don't pay the Canadian taxes and many of them don't even view themselves to be Canadian because they don't live in the country. However, when the situation in their country got rough, they relied on us to pay for their exit passage. (The citizenship for the other country didn't have such benefits.)

Am I making any sense here? I'm not talking about people who hold dual citizenships for symbolic reasons, but rather people who acquire it just so they can use Canadian resources when they're living overseas.

I guess maybe the dual citizenship should be more symbolic, than anything else. You can hold citizenship to two countries, but you can only use the benefits for the country you are currently living in. (There's been so many situations of confusion that happened as a result of dual citizenship.)

I must admit that I'm slightly surprised that more people don't have an issue with this. I've seen people get really passionate here about illegal immigrants using a country's resources. Yet, sometimes I think the situation for some holders of dual citizenship is very similar.

[HappyHamster]

Is getting citizenship easy in Canada? Cos a friend of mine is applying for it and it seemed to me he has to go through a lot of processes. Then again I might not have been paying attention properly, he gets quite pedantic :lol:

Oh btw, he does live in Canada. :)

[Webeh]

^ No, it's not easy. Not really.

There's this complicated point system he has to go through. (Ex. # of points for speaking English, # of points for already having a job waiting in Canada, etc. Add up the total and then hopefully your score is high enough to enter the country.) Then, there's the waiting. Lots and lots of waiting. After that, you need to pass your citizenship exam. But, from what I heard, that's the easy part.

Also, make sure your friend also considers this. No education/work experiences, but Canadian education/work (and maybe American) experience is worth s**t in Canada. If say your friend trained to be a doctor in China, he's not going to find a job as a doctor here. What he'll have to do is start all over again education-wise.

But, seeing that he's in Canada already. He might already know that. ;)

This is one thing I don't get. Why go through all this trouble to get dual citizenship, if you have no intention of staying in the first place? (Happyhamster, I'm not talking about your friend. He's cool. ;)) It's almost not worth the effort. Almost.

[HappyHamster]

No offense taken Webeh. :) See I thought he mentioned all that. In that case I don't see why one would go through all that when you don't even plan to live in Canada, unless perhaps to (like you mentioned before) abuse the system.

My friend actually works at the university of Montreal, so I think he's alright in the work/education deparment. :lol: He moved for love though. Ugh it's so romantic it makes me heave...

[Heather]

There has always been anti-americanism, since Bush it has grown way stronger. However, I swear to you that the great majority of people here (for example) would never treat American tourists in such a manner. There is a minority who would and I condemn them for doing so. However, it is usually the loudest you hear scream even if they are few and if they are idiots.
Thats not true all over. When my brother was stationed in Germany, he didnt want me visiting him because of the way Americans were treated by Germans off the base. I offered to speak in an Irish brogue (which I can do quite well), and that just earned me a glare.

[Webeh]

I offered to speak in an Irish brogue (which I can do quite well), and that just earned me a glare.

*snort!! :)

This actually reminded me of this story someone told me once. This lady, her daughter was going to school in Texas a few years back and was having a really hard time. It was around the time the Iraq war debate was occurring. Canada decided to not participate and I guess a lot of people knew that she's Canadian. So, she was tormented by losers everywhere she went. (You know how it is. There's always people who defines someone by their ethnicity, religion, country, etc.) At one time, she was at a point where she just wanted to drop out and go back home for relief. Of course, she toughed it out and eventually all the fuss died down.

As for Americans, I have heard of that happening in some countries. In fact, it apparently happens quite a bit to travelling Canadians. See to everyone outside of North America, Canadians and Americans all pretty much look and sound the same. So, of course we're all immediately categorized as American.

You'll get a couple backpacking and they ask someone for directions. Sometimes as soon as the North American accent come out, you hear a "Pfft... Americans. Sorry, I don't speak English." Then a backpacker turns around a bit and the native sees a Canadian flag stitched onto their bag/jacket/whatever. Suddenly, it's all "You're Canadian! You fought for us in the war! Come here, come here! I own a restaurant! Come and have a free meal!"

I kid you not. People keep telling me that if you ever travel, identify yourself as Canadian first and then ask for directions. Apparently in some places it makes a difference in how you're treated.

[Heather]

Was that a good snort, or a bad snort? :lol:

I really dont think Americans and Canadians sound alike. Let me rephrase that, Northern states, like North Dakota do, but Americans as a majority have very different accents depending on where they are from. My own sister sounds nothing like I do (she was raised in New England, while I was raised in Jersey). We, Americans, when it comes to accents are an odd bunch. There isnt a single accent here. Southerners sound nothing like northerners, or mid atlantic dwellers (like myself). And those from the midwest sound completely different from both. If you've ever heard Andy over the phone, you would hear it right away, the midwestern twang, which is distinctly different than the Southern drawl, or the New England or MidAtlantic accent.

I kid you not. People keep telling me that if you ever travel, identify yourself as Canadian first and then ask for directions. Apparently in some places it makes a difference in how you're treated.
That doesnt surprise me, actually.

If you want to know why I have no respect for certain European nations...read this:

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Our_Culture/americans.htm

And Webeh,
It was written by a Canadian...and in the 1970s. Seems like not much has changed in the world.

[Webeh]

Was that a good snort, or a bad snort?

Good snort. :)

I know Canadians and Americans don't sound alike. Heck, we don't even sound alike within the same country. But, to an outsider's ears it's all the same.

Although, I'll admit that I have that problem sometimes too. It's only recently I learned to distinguish between the different types of English accents. (Watching a lot of BBC productions will do that to you.) I won't necessarily be able to identify where they're from, but I will know if two accents are from different areas.

If you want to know why I have no respect for certain European nations...read this:

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Our_Culture/americans.htm

And Webeh,
It was written by a Canadian...and in the 1970s. Seems like not much has changed in the world.

That's from CFRB, a conservative talk radio station in Canada. (My mom listen to that station.) I'm generally not a fan of talk radio. It's usually all just angry people yelling at/hating on each other.

I remember listening to this one show and a lady called in. For some reason or another, she really hated French Canadians. Thought they should be excluded from government. Weird...

[Kari]

Thats not true all over. When my brother was stationed in Germany, he didnt want me visiting him because of the way Americans were treated by Germans off the base. I offered to speak in an Irish brogue (which I can do quite well), and that just earned me a glare.Seriously, I do live here and I have been living here for quite a while, you told me that before and as I said, it is usually those who scream the loudest you notice. I have been confronted with such behaviour in almost every country I went to. Including America. The nazi joke thing seems to still delight a lot of your people.
There are of course idiots who will treat Americans, (people of all different nations, for that matter) stupidy and awfully, but generally you would be warmly welcomed by the majority of people, I swear that to you.
Just because those who are ignorant, stupid and intolerant are screaming the loudest does not necessarily mean that they make the greatest part of people.

I will admit that your brother was probably facing more difficulties due to the fact that he is a solider and people are more prejudiced towards soldiers than towards civilians.

Seriously, it is not only because you are Americans, it is because there are always prejudices. As I said, I was confronted with behaviour of that kind everywhere, it happens to Germans in America, too.
in Britain Germans are often told to pretend they are from Austria or so, to not be beaten down.

[Heather]

I remember listening to this one show and a lady called in. For some reason or another, she really hated French Canadians. Thought they should be excluded from government. Weird...
Very weird. Considering that the French were there first. (Correct me if Im wrong)

Kari,
I think he was actually more afraid of me being my mouthy self and pissing off one of the Turks. But thats just a suspicion.

[Webeh]

Yup, the French found Canada first. I think. ;)

Well, this video leads me to think that the French did anyways...

Click Here (http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=10123)

I miss watching those commercials on the TV. Makes me feel all nostalgic...

[Heather]

That was pretty funny, Webeh. Ca-na-d-a...lol.

But yeah, Im pretty sure they French fur trading was pretty established by the time the English arrived there.

[Danizinha]

But, this has actually affected my country negatively. This past summer, the Canadian government spent millions to move thousands of people out of a country of war. Generally, this wouldn't bother me if they were all visiting Canadians. But in this case, most came to Canada to get the citizenship (just for the benefits) and then moved away right after to never be seen again. They don't pay the Canadian taxes and many of them don't even view themselves to be Canadian because they don't live in the country. However, when the situation in their country got rough, they relied on us to pay for their exit passage. (The citizenship for the other country didn't have such benefits.)

Wow that's really wrong. I didn't know people would actually go through all the trouble of immigrating legally just to go back to their country and enjoy the befefits. I think it's because personally, if I applied for a citizenship anywhere, it would be because I really wanted to make my life in that place and not just abuse the government. But I guess there are these kinds of people everywhere, only wanting to take from the government.
I think that the Canadian government should take some measurements to decrease this. Maybe if they gave a period of time during which the person could stay away of the country, and if that period expired the person would loose the benefits (not applying to all of course, because some people could really need to leave the country for some serious reason, but if they had to, they could give the government a proof of what they are going to do or something).

I don't know if that was understandable at all :lol:

[Kari]

Kari,
I think he was actually more afraid of me being my mouthy self and pissing off one of the Turks. But thats just a suspicion. LMAO. Oh, not too unrealistic actually. Of course you could also get in trouble with one of the friendly people without hair.

[Webeh]

I think that the Canadian government should take some measurements to decrease this.

This was a big issue during the summer. There was discussion of making changes. But then, like most things it was kind of forgotten by the government. *sigh...

That was pretty funny, Webeh. Ca-na-d-a...lol.

You interested in seeing the video on Winnie the Pooh? Apparently this bear gave piggy-back rides in the zoo. How awesome would that be if animals still did that?

Click Here (http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=10193)

[Heather]

That was a pretty interesting video. I love Winnie the Pooh. Is that really how it all happened? If it is, thats pretty cool.

LMAO. Oh, not too unrealistic actually. Of course you could also get in trouble with one of the friendly people without hair.
What people without hair?

And I cant say my brother's reservations arent justified. When I went to AZ for my cousin's wedding, we were all out for the bacherlorette party, and me and this one girl, Erin, got seperated from my cousin. So, I asked this guy on the street, if he had seen her, I was like, "She was wearing a white veil." He just ignored me, so I muttered, pretty loudly. "Yeah, ignore me. That will make me go away." Erin dragged me away, her mouth hanging open, and asked if I was trying to get killed. Apparently, its legal to carry a gun in Arizona...lol.

But that was just me being me. And Stephen knows me, and my sarcastic nature. *shrugs*

[Webeh]

That was a pretty interesting video. I love Winnie the Pooh. Is that really how it all happened? If it is, thats pretty cool.

Yup. I want a Pooh bear now too.

Apparently, its legal to carry a gun in Arizona...lol.

Is it legal to carry guns in most states or just a few? I've never actually been sure about this.

[Heather]

Depends on the state, Webeh.

[Webeh]

Would it be safe to say that it depends on whether it's a red or blue state? Or, not really?

Red is Republican and Blue is Democrat, right?

You know, these colours never made sense to me. In Canada, the party each colour represents are flipped. Red is Liberal and Blue is Conservative.

Yes, I realize that I'm probably just talking about random stuff now. ;)

[Kari]

What people without hair?

But that was just me being me. And Stephen knows me, and my sarcastic nature. *shrugs*I am like that. Today I had a teacher yelling and I told him how all would be easier if we were just nice with each other. It pisses people off sure as hell.

People without hair, I mean the racist skinheads (not all are racist). Many neonazis have no hair, wear bomber jackets etc.
Quite horrible.

[Heather]

Yes, red is Republican, and blue is democrat. But that doesnt really matter. Thats when it comes to national election, not personal decisions. Arizona is a pretty moderate state for the most part.

But yet, NY, which is a blue state, you can buy a gun without a warrant. At the same time, NJ, another blue state, you cant. It really does depend on the state.

People without hair, I mean the racist skinheads (not all are racist). Many neonazis have no hair, wear bomber jackets etc.
Quite horrible.
Are there alot of them in Germany? He never mentioned neo-Nazis.

You know, these colours never made sense to me. In Canada, the party each colour represents are flipped. Red is Liberal and Blue is Conservative.
What I always found funny about US politics is that the Republicans are an elephant, and Demcrats are a donkey.

[Quinton]

I think a lot of countries find US politics funny.

Margaret Cho made me laugh when she said during a routine:

"I was watching the election on television and it was great to see states go either red or blue. I thought 'well that's convenient, now we have a color-coded map to where all the stupid people are'".

She didn't elaborate on which color meant what but I found it quite amusing.

[Kari]

There are frighteningly many, Heather.
Well, actually they are a pretty small minority but they cause a whole big of trouble and in some regions in the east where we have a lot of unemployment and demographic problems especially young men do easily feel attracted to them and thus the radical right wing party had frighteningly hugh votes during the last federal elections.
It is pretty scary that a party can achieve so many votes with ads that show immigrants standing in line with the slogan "Bon Voyage".
It makes me sick.

[everwoodisfab]

^ that's awful :( there's been a big rise in support for the British National Party here who stand for pretty similar things. I encountered one of them campaigning in town today and had to be pulled away by my friend before I started something.

[Heather]

"I was watching the election on television and it was great to see states go either red or blue. I thought 'well that's convenient, now we have a color-coded map to where all the stupid people are'".
Considering who said it, its pretty obvious who she was talking about.

It makes me sick.
It would sicken me, too. I cringe just thinking about them.

[BellaBlack]

There was an article in my city newspaper today, about how the rising number of skinheads/Neo-Nazi's/KKK/etc is and how they are protesting against immigrants, legal and illegal.

[Quinton]

Considering who said it, its pretty obvious who she was talking about.Well... she then went on to rag on John Kerry.

[Heather]

She did? Really? Thats surprising to me, actually.

[Webeh]

What I always found funny about US politics is that the Republicans are an elephant, and Demcrats are a donkey.

Not exactly the coolest animals to choose, are they? You could come up with so many negative connotations for both. Weird choices.

[Quinton]

She did? Really? Thats surprising to me, actually.Yeah, she said he speaks like an Ent (from LoTR). I think she used a few expletives in her description too.

But don't worry, she also said lots of things about the Bush Administration. I wouldn't recommend people watch it though as it gets pretty gross.

[Faith]

Relevant link - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6399457.stm