Obama's Trinity United Church Of Christ

[Jon]

Well, though I doubt many people especially certain media outlets will pick-up on this, but the church Obama is a member of is absolutely racist and is no true church of Christ. This saddens me because as some people who will agree with me, if a church's doctrine was changed from African-American to white, people would be an uproar. If you don't know what I mean, this is taken from his church's website:

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

Commitment to God
Commitment to the Black Community
Commitment to the Black Family
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

Reading that absolutely sickens me. If you changed "black" to "white," our country would be on a rampage trying to take that church down, but because it's black, nobody seems to care.

I'm a believer in Christ and to me, no church, especially one with Christ's name in it, should ever have their concepts be about being black. I doubt Obama will come out and condemn this church, but even if he did, it's too late in my mind. How can someone be a member of this kind of church?

For those who do like Obama, this has nothing to do with the fact I am Conservative. To me the bottomline is, this seems almost like a Black Seperatist Movement under the umbrella of "Christ." When you go to a church, it's about God and Christ. Not about being black, red, white, blue, or any other color. No Church of Christ is EVER about being any color since we're all supposed to be the same - human beings.

[Ashlyn]

It doesn't seem to have influenced his judgment on anything.

I doubt the validity of this story, considering there were rumors about him going to a terrorist school wandering about earlier. (See what happens when journalists decide verification doesn't matter?) But, even if it is, it doesn't bother me all that much.

I don't really care about the religion of my leader. Maybe i'm a minority, but I really don't. If it hasn't shown in his decisions, than I don't care.

[oclover24]

Would you not elect a senator because he was Jewish? Muslim? Mormon? I have to agree with Ashlyn in that religion isn't that huge of a factor. Yes, it is a factor, but not that great of a one. A leader is a leader. Some people cannot see that, but I know that I can.

[Jon]

Would you not elect a senator because he was Jewish? Muslim? Mormon? I have to agree with Ashlyn in that religion isn't that huge of a factor. Yes, it is a factor, but not that great of a one. A leader is a leader. Some people cannot see that, but I know that I can.

Well I lost everything I typed, so now I will give it a shortened version. Your analogies are incorrect. The point of my thread is there is no religion. You two have brought up religion, but the point is "black power" or whatever they believe in, isn't a religion. My point is that I wouldn't want the PERSON who may become the President of The U.S.A. to be part of something racist.

Secondly, Ashlyn, I didn't post any stories. So I don't know how you got that idea? I'm just confused is all. What I posted was my opinion and in regards to the church, that was taken from THEIR own official website. But beyond that, it's PROVEN this is the church that Obama attends. So there is no story, or anything that I took from a story in that sense.

[olivetree]

It doesn't seem to have influenced his judgment on anything.

I doubt the validity of this story, considering there were rumors about him going to a terrorist school wandering about earlier. (See what happens when journalists decide verification doesn't matter?) But, even if it is, it doesn't bother me all that much.

I don't really care about the religion of my leader. Maybe i'm a minority, but I really don't. If it hasn't shown in his decisions, than I don't care.

Totally agree! There's more to a person than their religion. I'm not going to vote against someone because they're a pagan or something that I'm not (I'm not saying Obama is a pagan, I'm just making an example...). As long as their religion is kept separate from politics and I'm still allowed to have my own religion, then who am I to stop them from believing what they want?! The great thing about America is, everyone is allowed to have their own religion, we are not forced to follow any group if we do not choose to. Not every country can say that. I'm certainly glad we can.

[Ashlyn]

Secondly, Ashlyn, I didn't post any stories. So I don't know how you got that idea? I'm just confused is all. What I posted was my opinion and in regards to the church, that was taken from THEIR own official website. But beyond that, it's PROVEN this is the church that Obama attends. So there is no story, or anything that I took from a story in that sense.

I meant the "story" in the sense of what people are saying, and I didn't know where you got your information. For all I knew it was the latest thing Fox News was saying.

... not that I'm doubting you, but where is the proof that he goes to this church? I'm a fan of double checking these sorts of things, not that, as I've said before, it really matters where he goes to church.

[Faith]

If he does go to this church then for once I'm with Jon - in shock Jon? :lol:

Yes, religion shouldn't matter, but racism should. If someone is involved in a movement that is blatantly racist, then I would be concerned and would not want them running my country. However, the church doesn't seem to condemn white people - it just celebrates the black ethnicity. Which isn't good, still, but which makes this less of a worry about his character

[OTH man]

If he indeed does go there, i agree with Jon.

I mean, "Black Power"- i think it's REDICULOUS! There shouldnt be "white power" or "black power" organizations

and while we're at it- if blacks want equal rights why do they get their own month? or everytime someone scolds them (techer, ect.) or cracks a joke at them, it's racism? NO- thats life!

[/rant]

and don't you dare tell me i'm racist because of what i just said- keep in mind i said i want things to be EQUAL not for whites

[Faith]

It's just the generalisation of 'they' that might whind someone up

[Ashlyn]

Okay, I looked into this, and the Black Value System, as written on the church's website, doesn't seem to be offensive, unless it's taken out of context.

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%20value%20system.pdf

"“The God of our weary years” will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankind."

The "Black" aspect of it does not to appear to be seperating them completely from whites with an "us" and "them" view, looking negatively on white people, instead it seems to be a way to guide black people through the specific challenges they face.

Lets not be colorblind. White and black people are certainly equal, but years of racism & it's pervalence today shows us that the challenges each race faces are different, and this church just seems to be drawing attention to those challenges and helping people overcome there own.

Disliking Obama for attending this church would be like thinking it's unacceptable for a Chinese presidential candidate to live in Chinatown.

This is NOT anti-white.

Look at their mission statement:

Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!

We are called out to be "a chosen people" that pays no attention to socio-economic or educational backgrounds. We are made up of the highly educated and the uneducated. Our congregation is a combination of the haves and the have-nots; the economically disadvantaged, the under-class, the unemployed and the employable.

The fortunate who are among us combine forces with the less fortunate to become agents of change for God who is not pleased with America’s economic mal-distribution!

W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ.

[Bely]

My point is that I wouldn't want the PERSON who may become the President of The U.S.A. to be part of something racist.

But beyond that, it's PROVEN this is the church that Obama attends. So there is no story, or anything that I took from a story in that sense.

you are aware that georgies grandfather supported the nazis right?

wow,you obviously do not know what proof is. Proof is not just an article about what that church is. Are there any some sort of attendance records he has ever been to that church? has he ever admitted to going to that church? has he ever been seen in that church? and i don't want answers,i want stuff like pictures,official documents...you know...proof..the kind that a judge in court would also accept

[oclover24]

If I see more proof that Obama is a racist, then I might believe you. But I doubt that Obama is racist. Isn't he mixed race, for crying out loud?

[Jon]

I wasn't calling Obama racist. Not once did I use those words, I said I don't want my President to be part of something racist. And that analogy of Chinatown is wrong. I don't care where a Chinese person wanted to live, but a church that has values based on everything black to me is racist. Whats the new for the "black value system" for instance. That's their convenants. I just find it racist. If that were a white church, people would be an uproar is the point.

[oclover24]

I wasn't calling Obama racist. Not once did I use those words

No, I guess you did not, but you basically implied that his organization was racist, which would probably make him a racist. :shrugs:

[BellaBlack]

Are we sure this is even 100% true? If he wasn't running for president, I don't think anyone would even care or believe it.

[Ashlyn]

I wasn't calling Obama racist. Not once did I use those words, I said I don't want my President to be part of something racist. And that analogy of Chinatown is wrong. I don't care where a Chinese person wanted to live, but a church that has values based on everything black to me is racist. Whats the new for the "black value system" for instance. That's their convenants. I just find it racist. If that were a white church, people would be an uproar is the point.

As for the analogy, I don't think it is. From what I gather from the church's website, it's purpose is primarily the same as a neighboorhood affiliated with a particular ethnicity.

I'm not disagreeing with you there. If it were a white power church, there would be a lot of uproar. No lie.

BUT, that being said,

[1] African culture is as deserving of celebration as Asian culture, etc. There isn't really a specific White culture.
[2] A "White" church would probably be focused more on white-supremacy, rather than trying to right social injustice. The Black people are the repressed people, so having a church to promote the equality of the people is a lot different than having a church to perpetuate the supremacy of the white culture.
[3] Nobody is really afraid that the white people will be supressed. When you look at the races of people in power, you have an overwhelming amount of white people. Obama could be the biggest anti-white person in the world, and even if he was elected he wouldn't be able to really do anything to hurt the white people. A candidate against black people, however, would have, at very least, a better shot.

[Jon]

Well to me the bottomline is if a Church is a church of Christ, then there should be no empowering any race. We're all people. It just screams that the church goes against Christianity in my mind. Could just be me though. Which is okay too.

[Ashlyn]

I don't necessarily think one has to be colorblind to be a Christian, or that it's necessarily un-Christian to celebrate your culture, but I can see your point here. However, while I find all of this interesting, I don't find it particularly relevant to whether or not he'd be a good President, although I can see it as something we hear about a lot in the smear campaign.

[Kari]

Seriously, what is the big deal about the excerpt from the site.

Quite frankly, I read it over and over and I do not see racism there. I see that there is a church who is also political. It is a church I would not agree with and it is maybe sort of anachronistic, but I really don't see the big deal there.

I mean, yeah, it could say white instead of black and people would make a fuss about it, but that is because white people have not been sold into slavery by black ones, nor have they been victims of segregation and repression.

Yes, I know, what is happening in Africa, for example Zimbabwe, seems to prove the opposite, but that does not make centuries of history unhappened.
I mean, if he was a Russian orthodox because his family had roots in Russia would that be a drama?

And it is not like this church has the programme to destroy white civilization...

Being Christian and being aware of one's roots is not a contradiction.

it makes it look like Obama is a racist, which we all know he is not.
I don't get why we must always throw mud.

[Faith]

I wasn't calling Obama racist. Not once did I use those words, I said I don't want my President to be part of something racist. And that analogy of Chinatown is wrong. I don't care where a Chinese person wanted to live, but a church that has values based on everything black to me is racist. Whats the new for the "black value system" for instance. That's their convenants. I just find it racist. If that were a white church, people would be an uproar is the point.


Oh right.. then I guess I do disagree with you.

All is right in the world once more :)

With that line of thinking, do you not find the tabloids posts to be prejudice? The threads for all the people from different nations? That's segregating in the same manner, isn't it? By that thinking, surely extreme patriotism is prejudice. If so, half the threads in the Tabloids should be deleted

If being proud of being black equates to be racism, that is

[Heather]

So, I just read your post, Jon, and I see what you mean. A white church like that would be coined as elitist, racist, and be picketed. The fact that that Obama is a member of it, surprisingly doesnt sicken me, or even bother me. I dont care what religion a candidate is, or in what way they choose to worship (Although I would take exception with a Satanist...)

Anyway,
I get your point. I also find it funny how they refer to Africa as "the cradle of civilization." Hmmm...they obviously dont know their history, do they?

I dont think Jon was saying they were racist, he was pointing out the double standard that exists in the US when it comes to races. Black pride is embraced, white pride is scorned. Why cant I be excepting of other races, while being proud of my european heritage at the same time? Because thats the way most of us are.

you are aware that georgies grandfather supported the nazis right?
Why do you find it necessary to bring Bush up in every thread, especially when those threads have absolutely nothing to do with him? Stay on topic. This is the third time you've been asked.

[Faith]

Hey hey now, it's politics, everything is related to Bush.
It was kind of relevant because the thread was Jon saying what he wouldn't want in his leader - aka links to an organisation he didn't agree with.

Anyway,
I get your point. I also find it funny how they refer to Africa as "the cradle of civilization." Hmmm...they obviously dont know their history, do they?

Sidenote: Everyone was African at one point, if you look at the world before the plates moved - so says my American History teacher, anyway. So maybe that's the historical slant they are talking about


I dont think Jon was saying they were racist, he was pointing out the double standard that exists in the US when it comes to races. Black pride is embraced, white pride is scorned. Why cant I be excepting of other races, while being proud of my european heritage at the same time? Because thats the way most of us are.

I agree with you 100% there Heather, it's the same in Britain, people look upon celebrating your race different according to what race you actually are. Its absolutely ridiculous but at the same time, that climate has come about for a reason. It's a shame we have to live with the consquences of our ancestors.

But Jon did call the organisation racist, hence a follower of it would be such

[Heather]

That poster is from Belgium, Gem. Bush isnt her leader, she's just making spiteful remarks. And it really has nothing to do with this thread. Bush is a Christian...whatever his grandfather may have or may not have felt is irrelevant, because thats not him.

Thats like saying because my grandmother was an Anti-Semite, I must be one too. When both my best friend, and my mother's best friend, are Jewish. You know how much I love Morie. Do I look like an anti-Semite to you?

If anything, its the exact opposite, I try to learn as much as I can about other religions, because I love to learn. I know so much about the Jewish faith, and respect it.

My best friend at work is a Muslim, and we constantly talk about religion. I want to understand her faith and customs, and she wants understand mine. We actually had a discussion the other day about the Protestant Reformation, and what it meant, because she never really understood it.

Scientifically, we were all one land mass at one point yes, but it wasnt called Africa. Historically, the cradle of civilization was in the Middle East, not what we now know as Africa.

[Jon]

I always thought the cradle of civilization started somewhere in Asia. But to further Heather's comment, when the world was one land mass it was call Pangaea aka "The Super Continent." But I never have heard that everyone was African. This is the first I have heard of this.

[Webeh]

I always thought the cradle of civilization started somewhere in Asia.

Isn't Asia still relatively new compared to other places? Or, am I thinking about cultures and just got it mixed? I know one is supposed to be still be pretty young in comparison to others.

[onebadkitty]

Oh yes I am back to put my two cents in, mwhahahahah


Ok first things first, yes I am bring up Bush, why because I can so :p

So would you be offended if Bush was a member of this church? Would you be more offended if all the blacks said white and bush was a member?

How about if it said hispanic or gay or something like that. Would you still be stand by Bush no matter what?

Now back to the topic at hand.

I am still trying to figure out why this would appall anyone. I have seen churches like this that are committed to the community they are a in. There are Hispanic churches like this. Strangely enough I was a member of an Hispanic church that was committed to helping the Hispanic community, yet they took me in with open arms even though I am African American. The predominately African-American church that I attended as a child had several members that were not black, yes some of them are white.

If seems like you are trying to condemn Obama for attending a church that is trying to better it's people, through education and the word of god. They are not teaching people to hate other races, but are encouraging them to better themselves.

I dont think Jon was saying they were racist, he was pointing out the double standard that exists in the US when it comes to races. Black pride is embraced, white pride is scorned. Why cant I be excepting of other races, while being proud of my european heritage at the same time? Because thats the way most of us are.
No one is telling you that you cannot be proud of your heritage. It is when someone believes that their race is superior to others, that is were the problems began. I am proud of my husband's Scottish heritage. We celebrate it every year. Hell I even compete with him under his colors. (Long story).

This church is not giving the message that black people are superior to others, they are giving the message that we have the power to better ourselves as a community.

As for black history month, I think is important that kids especially black children are exposed to this. Some children do not know that there are famous black inventors, they do not know who Rosa Parks is, that there is so many other things that black people have done through the years to better themselves. Its is not something that they are exposed to in most history books.

Did you also know that we have:
Hispanic Heritage Month - starts September 15th
Asian Pacific American (APA) Heritage Month - starts in May
Women's History Month - March
National American Indian Heritage Month - November

So should we get rid of all these other months and not expose our children to other cultures that they may not be expose to on a regular basic?

[Heather]

I think celebrating all our cultures should be a year long thing. Not just designated to just certain month. We have a very tangled history in the US, and I think we should celebrate all the cultures that make us what we are, all the time, and expose our children to that, so they really understand what it means to be an American.

[onebadkitty]

But you as a history teacher should know that our books and curriculum are not set up that way, and if we only go by what is in those books our children would be missing out on a whole lot of history that could be so helpful to them in the long run.

Our daughters need to know that Women can be anything that they wanna be. That there were woman who fought for the right to be able to do the same things that men do and for the same pay.

Our African-American children need to know the struggles of their ancestors and the people who paved the way to get them were they are today.

In fact every child should know the struggles of everyone's ancestors. It will give them a better grip on others cultures and teach them tolerance. History books don't do that, and until the day when they do, I am glad in know that at least one month out of the year my girls are getting exposed to cultures that they wouldn't normally be exposed to.

[Heather]

Yes, I do know that, Kitty. In my previous posts, I was going to go off on school districts which dictate what we can and cant teach, but I held back.

If I could teach the way I would like, it would be no holds barred...lol. What really happened, how it shaped us as a nation, and how each individual culture is a vital part of our national identity.

I always thought the cradle of civilization started somewhere in Asia. But to further Heather's comment, when the world was one land mass it was call Pangaea aka "The Super Continent." But I never have heard that everyone was African. This is the first I have heard of this.
That post reminded me of the TV show, Dinosaurs. That was a great show. I miss Earl. :lol:

[Bely]

That poster is from Belgium, Gem. Bush isnt her leader, she's just making spiteful remarks. And it really has nothing to do with this thread. Bush is a Christian...whatever his grandfather may have or may not have felt is irrelevant, because thats not him.

Thats like saying because my grandmother was an Anti-Semite, I must be one too. When both my best friend, and my mother's best friend, are Jewish. You know how much I love Morie. Do I look like an anti-Semite to you?

If anything, its the exact opposite, I try to learn as much as I can about other religions, because I love to learn. I know so much about the Jewish faith, and respect it.

My best friend at work is a Muslim, and we constantly talk about religion. I want to understand her faith and customs, and she wants understand mine. We actually had a discussion the other day about the Protestant Reformation, and what it meant, because she never really understood it.

Scientifically, we were all one land mass at one point yes, but it wasnt called Africa. Historically, the cradle of civilization was in the Middle East, not what we now know as Africa.



so i have no right to comment on the bush administration because he's not my leader?...interesting.... because america invaded iraq gas prices are now higher and the world has generally become an unsafer place to live in so you can bet ur ass i'll comment on everything that inept excuse for an president does. furthermore,i didn't say that bush had to be necissarily a nazi,it just means that his grandfather supported thm ,so there is a tie in his family with the nazis,actually the more important tie is between the bush family and the saudis who they see as family or the business they do with the bin ladens,i even believe bush sr had a meeting with them on the day of 9/11 and yes,now i'm getting off topic,to get onto topic,who cares what church obama goes to,it should be all about his leadership,not about his private life

[Isley]

Bely, I understand your view, but there is no need to be hostile here. :)

But I agree, I feel that it shouldn't matter at all, which church he is a part of. You have to see the situation in perspective, and for many obvious reasons, there is a difference between causing Black-awareness, and being racist.

and on a sidenote: On what i know of the US' history curriculum, I was really shocked there wasn't more Black-and World history. It is really sad.

[Heather]

Your hostility really needs to stop, and it needs to stop now.

No one said you couldnt talk about Bush, but do it in the appropriate thread. A thread about Obama, has absolutely NOTHING to do with Bush, and your hatred towards him is misplaced here.

Im not going to say it again.

and on a sidenote: On what i know of the US' history curriculum, I was really shocked there wasn't more Black-and World history. It is really sad.

Actually, there is quite a bit of world history in US curriculum. In our school, world history are grades 8 and 9, US history is grades 10 & 11. In world history, we usually get through WW2, but not much beyond that because of time constraints. I know when I taught World to my freshmen, we got through Stalin.

[onebadkitty]

ok more of my two cents!

I don't think Bely was being hostile. I think her/his original comment regarding Bush's family was justify. Hell when you run for any kind of office your opponent will look for any kind of dirt on your or your family. She was just stating that Bush's family may have some dirty little secrets, yet that did not stop him from being elected.

I think that the comment made about Bely's right (or lack of) to comment on Bush in this thread because of where she is from was a little harsh. Where someone comes from should not justify what they can and cannot comment on. It is her opinion, it may not be one that everyone agrees with, but it is her.

[BellaBlack]

I don't think the president's religion really matters unless they try to convert everyone or are Satanic or something related.

Although Bush would be connected to this thread also. I've heard all sorts of crazy rumors that he is tied to cults like the Bohemian Grove. I don't like him, but I don't believe that crap which is why I'm not believing in this about Obama since I don't know if it's 100% true.

[Heather]

Its funny how we're all for freedom of religion, but have an issue with Satanism. :lol:

[Webeh]

Bohemian Grove

Which is what? *scratches head.

Its funny how we're all for freedom of religion, but have an issue with Satanism.

I remember once I pissed off some people by suggesting that God and Satan has a business arrangements of sorts. Because otherwise, I don't get how the pair can decide who goes where after death. What if they both want the same person? ;)

In world history, we usually get through WW2, but not much beyond that because of time constraints. I know when I taught World to my freshmen, we got through Stalin.

That's weird, because WWII was a big chunk of the first history course when I was in high school. World History involved Ancient Greece, China, etc. (Mostly trends/practices and not really people from what I was told. I had one bad history teacher who had this odd obsession with Russian royalty and oil. Subjects that were not a part of the course curriculum. So, I decided to discontinue with the history courses.) All the earlier stuff about your own country was supposed to be taught in elementary school.

[Heather]

Well, WW2 is a big chunk of US2. World History for high school freshmen starts with the Tudors, and goes through Stalin, because of time restraints.

[Kari]

Our issue with satanism probably stems from the urge that satanists feel to step over state laws, and while I think everybody should be able to celebrate and live one's religion and culture that should stay within the frame of what is allowed in the constitution.

I think it is a shame how restricted schools are. But frankly, it is impossible to really teach and learn stuff in a way that would do justice to the topics.
I mean, of course we focus on Germany in history, but we also learned a fair deal about Britain, America, India, China...yet, I feel like I talked WW2 and the Holocaust in almost every year of school, and in history we never treated the Civil Rights Movement. Our education has gaps.
As much as I am pretty sure that in America students learn rather little about the Stasi and the GDR and in Britain History lesson does anyways exclude what is known about Germany after WW2...

But that is actually OT.

[Faith]

In reference to my history teacher blabbing on about the all land originating where Africa is currently - she may be wrong then. But I got an A under her tutorage, so I can't complain ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondwana

Perhaps she meant Britain came from where Africa is currently

Anyway, this debate is fun, but I'm off on holiday to Prague!
My final words -
Obama isn't racist for celebrating his religion/race/other
Everyone is allowed an opinion on George Bush - the WONDEROUS SUPER POWER effects us all, after all
We don't like satanists
We should all make love and make some daisy chains - peace out current event dudes x

[Bely]

ok more of my two cents!

I don't think Bely was being hostile. I think her/his original comment regarding Bush's family was justify. Hell when you run for any kind of office your opponent will look for any kind of dirt on your or your family. She was just stating that Bush's family may have some dirty little secrets, yet that did not stop him from being elected.

I think that the comment made about Bely's right (or lack of) to comment on Bush in this thread because of where she is from was a little harsh. Where someone comes from should not justify what they can and cannot comment on. It is her opinion, it may not be one that everyone agrees with, but it is her.


to that i only have two words : thank you :-)

oh and btw it's a her :D

[oclover24]

At my school, we take a year of World History and a year of U.S. History. In World History, we hit WWII pretty hard, and in U.S. History, we're hitting it hard as well. Then again, I'm in AP U.S. so we hit everything pretty hard. :lol: In U.S. History, we talk a lot about how the world impacts the U.S.

[BellaBlack]

Bohemian Grove

Which is what? *scratches head.





Oh you don't want to know :lol:

[Heather]

I don't think Bely was being hostile. I think her/his original comment regarding Bush's family was justify. Hell when you run for any kind of office your opponent will look for any kind of dirt on your or your family. She was just stating that Bush's family may have some dirty little secrets, yet that did not stop him from being elected
She was being hostile, and Im not the only one who thinks so. And this thread is about Obama. What does Bush have to do with it? And I would have taken the same stance if she was hostile towards Clinton. Its off topic, and unnecessary.

And my comment about her being from Belgium, wasnt directed at her. It was directed at Gem's post about leaders. Bush isnt her leader, so even if your using that argument, it was still misplaced, and unnecessary.

The bottom line is that she was asked five times in numerous threads to stay on topic, and refused. She was PMed by a moderator, and ignored that PM. Her actions were wrong. (And no, Im not the moderator that PMed her)

[onebadkitty]

I read all the posts, I even went back and read some of the other ones since it was her 5th offense you say. There is one that I would agree with you on, but the others I am still really trying to figure out why they were considered out of line, but that is neither here nor there. I am just a lowly member so there is no need really to justify anything to me, because who truly cares what I think.

I don't view her original comment regarding out of line or irrelevent, in fact I could see the connection. Obama could be a presidential candidate, Bush is the president. His (Bush) family ties did not stop him from getting into office why should it stop Obama. If Bush had been a candidate would the comment be ok, or if it was about another person (say Clinton) would this be an issues?

As for your comment to Gem regarding Bely.
That poster is from Belgium, Gem. Bush isn't her leader, she's just making spiteful remarks. And it really has nothing to do with this thread. Bush is a Christian...whatever his grandfather may have or may not have felt is irrelevant, because thats not him.

You stated that Bush was not her leader. So does that mean she does not have the right to make any comments on him regardless of the thread, because of where she is from? I would have made a similar reply had you said that about me.

Let's switch places with the two of you. Had she made the same comment to Gem, would you not be a little pissed if she was in your shoes?

And I also find it very funny that no one was brave enough to say that your comment may have been a little bit harsh also.

But you know what they say two wrongs don't make a right.

So to get this convo back topic....

Yes Obama (who is black if you folks didn't know) belongs to a predominantly black church. A church that doesn't think that it's congregation is better than all others because they are black, but a church that is trying to help its community as a whole, which just happens to be a black community.

and to set the pace, I guess it is safe to say please leave comments regarding other candidates, presidents and/or past presidents out of the thread, no matter how relevant they might be to your post.

I hope that covered just about everything have a great day and now a word from our sponsors....

*cues the dancing ladies as Kitty exits stage right*

[amberdawn]

^ Heather was not being harsh. She was trying to return the discussion to what it should be. And I'm sure you weren't, but I was offended reading Bely's post. I don't come into this part of the forum to be offended, but to discuss.

[onebadkitty]

Since we are off topic...

What in Bely's post offended you?

Curiosity always gets the better of me.

[Heather]

PM me, Kitty

[Isley]

She was being hostile, and Im not the only one who thinks so. And this thread is about Obama. What does Bush have to do with it? And I would have taken the same stance if she was hostile towards Clinton. Its off topic, and unnecessary.

And my comment about her being from Belgium, wasnt directed at her. It was directed at Gem's post about leaders. Bush isnt her leader, so even if your using that argument, it was still misplaced, and unnecessary.

The bottom line is that she was asked five times in numerous threads to stay on topic, and refused. She was PMed by a moderator, and ignored that PM. Her actions were wrong. (And no, Im not the moderator that PMed her)

Um, I thought the rules of the CE was widened. So that things that could even be bashing was allowed, not that im in favour of bashing or anything, but that we at least could say our opinions. And at second read of Bely's comment, I guess there is nothing wrong with it. And about keeping to topic, that is almost impossible to do, because there are always connected elements that could be called "off topic" since it's not the accurate topic.

And seriously, we are spending so much time with the all "you're off topic" "no I'm not" that it seems like if you get a teensy weensy bit "off topic" youre shouted at. And there is no reason to begin with the "Bush/Clinton/whatever" isn't the topic of this thread til the extent of taboo.Because when you're talking about someone who is maybe becoming president, to link the current president into it, isn't that far-fetched to me.

And, Amber I cannot really understand what in that post that offended you, it wasn't directed at you in any way, and has nothing to do with you within any limitations.

and I'm being OT YES, but I didn't bring it up.

[Ashlyn]

^ Heather was not being harsh. She was trying to return the discussion to what it should be. And I'm sure you weren't, but I was offended reading Bely's post. I don't come into this part of the forum to be offended, but to discuss.

I'm not saying this is the right thread for it, but I'm afraid that people's (including my) views on W are almost certainly going to offend his supporters, just like people's views on Hillary and Obama ocasionally get under my skin. It's impossible to discuss our quite different views without a little offense. Bely's post may have been in the wrong thread, but I don't think you should take it's content personally.

[*Ashlee*]

It is not so much that bashing is allowed. We are just supposed to be fair and unbiased. I am the first to admit that I am not a Bush fan BUT there is an appropriate way to express that and an appropriate place. We encourage debating and discussion but things need to remain respectful :)

Due to the nature of this section, there may be posts people are offended by even when the poster was not trying to come off that way. So we should all examine the posts and step back a minute. Perhaps taking things with a grain of salt would do us good lol

Now, let us get back on the topic of this thread and the sub-topics that go with it before this thread turns into a battle of sorts. Feel free to PM any of us if you would like to discuss this further! :)

[Isley]

yeah, thanks for straighting things up Ashlyn and Ashlee(still love how your name fit together:lol: )

Ashlee, that is totally understandable and a very fair strategy.

[Heather]

So, to stay on topic....Obama....

What do you guys think of the Obama v. Hillary in the last few weeks. I asked it in the Hillary thread, but no one responded. So why not ask it in here?

[Kari]

:lol: I had no time to follow it...currently I am revising Metamorphosis by Kafka, after having studied testing hypothesises and Madame Bovary earlier today...

But I say I don't care who out of them makes it as long as one does...

[Heather]

I think this will be an interesting primary season. It always is when there is no sitting incumbent.

[BellaBlack]

I am leaning towards Obama a bit more you could say. My world issues teacher brought up something interesting..Hilary doesn't seem to have the women's vote in a majority and Obama doesn't seem to have the vote of black people in a majority either...

:ot: I've read Madame Bovary Kari..quite..depressing.

[Heather]

I saw the film on Masterpiece Theater...and yes, it was very depressing. :lol:

Well, its still really early, Bella. At this point, anything could happen.

[Kari]

both movie and book are depressing, but...good.

:lol:
And that is very much off topic.

But yeah, Obama looks good by the way...a Clinton-ish bonus. I discussed it with my French teacher :lol: