Patriotism

[Heather]

Ive been listening to the words of a certain song, and it made me wonder....when did the act of being a proud American, and taking pride in being American become a bad thing?

Because I am proud to be an American. I am proud of our history, and the stand we are taking in the modern world. I dont shirk from it. I am honored to have several family members who are a part of this struggle. If I could, I would join my brother, and cousins, in their fight to preserve our freedoms.

And yes, I get that all Americans are not behind the war....their perrogative. But I am behind our military.

I cant even begin to describe how much I support my family in the armed forces, and the military as a whole.

And I refuse to be ashamed of them, of the actions they take. Everyday they risk their lives for our freedoms. And I salute them for that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aC2eunpbSw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAbZxeyxPDQ

[Ashlyn]

I'm not.

It's unpopular.

But I'm not proud to be an American.

I like the things we have and the freedoms. I do. I like the hope in the democratic process.

BUT, I hate how we got this land, and I hate our imperalistic tendencies, and I hate how we treat our poor.

[Andrew]

Patriotism isn't a bad thing, but sometimes the excess of it can be meandering.

I, too am proud to be an American, but personally don't feel it's necessary to reiterate the long factsheet of "What I'm Proud of In This Country" every time there's a political or social issue.


Also, in terms of why patriotism has suddenly become a "bad thing," I guess it goes with the backlash after 9/11: "If you didn't agree with us, you're with them"; "Move to France!"; "Freedom fries" etc.

The idea of "oppositional opinion = unpatriotic" was/is utterly ridiculous.

[Heather]

Yeah, I thought the freedom fries thing was pretty silly as well....

But I understood the reasoning behind it. Even if I didnt agree with it.

With me, it comes down to, I AM proud to be an American, and proud of what this country stands for. But then again, I speak only for myself.

[Andrew]

Well... I guess that poses another question of "what does it mean to be patriotic?"

I say the Pledge of Allegiance when I need to.
I sing the national anthem when I need to.
Also, when doing the aforementioned two, I actually get up and do the whole "right hand over heart" thing.
I vote.
I defend my country --debate wise, of course-- when I feel it is warranted ("Hugo Chavez... Seriously?").

On the other (obvious) side, I don't defend the U.S. when I feel it isn't warranted.

But again, a different opinion doesn't mean I'm unpatrotic. It just equates to me saying "Yes, I'm American; proud/fortunate to be one. I just hate a lot of the bullshit that occurs here."

Oh... and I don't have a flag hanging outside my window. That's something, right?

[Kari]

I am not patriotic. I am grateful, but I am not proud of an coincidence.
I think the country where I live is the frame for my development as a person. That means, I will actively fight to make this country a place as good as possible. Maybe that is a form of patriotism. But then again, I think this desire should not be restricted to one country but spread to the entire world.

Whatever, I also don't get how opposition against governmental choices, such as the war, is unpatriotic. It simply shows that some people are of the opinion that another decision would have been more beneficial for the country. That is patriotic.

[Heather]

Ashlyn,
Do you understand that everytime this war is criticized, they see it as a personal criticism. They are putting their lives in danger, here. And every harsh word, they take as a personal attack against them. You might not mean it that way, but thats the way that they see it. And they are sick of it. They are dying so you can have freedom of speech. Respect what they are doing for that, if nothing else.

Everyday soldiers are dying for our freedoms. And all they get in return is criticism, and derision. And it pisses them off, rightly so.

And to answer your question, Andrew.

I dont have an American flag hanging in my window, but I do have a blue star (military thing)

I stand and salute during the Pledge of Allegiance.

I admit that not all of our history is pretty, but I also understand that it has made us who we are, and is a fundamental part of our national identity.

I respect our electoral process, even when I dont agree with the outcome. I dont picket the victor, because I dont like him.

I respect our laws, revere our Constitution, and have the utmost respect for the division of powers.

I know every word to the Star Spangled banner and sing it proudly (and badly).

[Isley]

I think the meaning of "patriotic" varies from every country you're in.

You can say I'm patriotic in the way I love my country's nature and heritage, though I am not proud of my country as a unity and the people who live here. I think people are cold and arrogant, and ungrateful. I hate how they/we make themselves/ourself the most important country in the world just because they/we were lucky to stumble over some oil.

I think a lot of people in my country are very protective over the country because we have always been put down, and been a bargaining chip in external affaires. Nobody have heard about us, and will always mistake us as the capital of Sweden, deal with it! I don't care, we're not THAT important anyways.

[Heather]

Your from Norway, right?

Do people really confuse Norway with the capital of Sweden? Ive always been able to tell the difference between Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. But then again, Im a geek.

[oclover24]

I'm patriotic. I'm proud of being an American, and have felt proud when foreign exchange kids tell me that they like America than their homeland. (One was from Germany, and the other from Thailand.)

I think everybody should should support the military even if they don't support the war. After all, "don't hate the player, hate the game."

BUT, I hate how we got this land

That isn't you. It is your ancestors. We can all feel ashamed about the past. But the past is what is it - it's over. You can work to change what you feel isn't right either. You're not alone in your feelings. Learning about U.S. History and what we did to other people is sometimes shocking and embarrassing. But things aren't like that anybody but people have changed it.

I also think that many Americans take their country for granted. We focus on the bad, and not the good. Why do so many people immigrate here, even in times when our country isn't doing that well? It's because people see the promise and hope of a better future.

[Heather]

That isn't you. It is your ancestors. We can all feel ashamed about the past. But the past is what is it - it's over. You can work to change what you feel isn't right either. You're not alone in your feelings. Learning about U.S. History and what we did to other people is sometimes shocking and embarrassing. But things aren't like that anybody but people have changed it.

I also think that many Americans take their country for granted. We focus on the bad, and not the good. Why do so many people immigrate here, even in times when our country isn't doing that well? It's because people see the promise and hope of a better future.
So true!

As for the ancestor thing....

Every time I see a Native American, I feel the need to apologize for what happened to them, what they endured. Even though when it happened, my ancestors were still in Europe, and not even remotely responsible.

[oclover24]

^ I know what you mean!

My thoughts got jumbled a bit at the end of my first post here, what I meant to say was "But things aren't like that because people have changed it."

[Isley]

Your from Norway, right?

Do people really confuse Norway with the capital of Sweden? Ive always been able to tell the difference between Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. But then again, Im a geek.
Some do actually. And I've come across it several times. Maybe its because many people think Scandinavia as one country . But in some way I can understand it because we share a common history and Norway was in union with Sweden until 1905. And with Denmark for 400 years. OK I shall stop now, it must be boring to have to read this.

I am not proud to be Norwegian because for me there is nothing to be proud of. I'm more proud of my character than my nationality.

[*Liz*]

I am proud to be swedish. I love my country and what it stands for!

We have worked for all the things we have, like Maddy says they were fortunat to have oil and became a wealthy countrey because of it. We don't have that but we found other resources instead.

We keep the country clean and green by recycling: wedonate alot of money to countris less fortunat. We haven't been in a war for like 100 years.

There are bad things about sweden too I am sure... but what country doesn't have atleast some bad things about them.

Maddy people usually mix up sweden with switzerland :lol: and think we have polarbears walking on the streets hehehhe

[Ashlyn]

Ashlyn,
Do you understand that everytime this war is criticized, they see it as a personal criticism. They are putting their lives in danger, here. And every harsh word, they take as a personal attack against them. You might not mean it that way, but thats the way that they see it. And they are sick of it. They are dying so you can have freedom of speech. Respect what they are doing for that, if nothing else.

Everyday soldiers are dying for our freedoms. And all they get in return is criticism, and derision. And it pisses them off, rightly so.

And to answer your question, Andrew.

I dont have an American flag hanging in my window, but I do have a blue star (military thing)

I stand and salute during the Pledge of Allegiance.

I admit that not all of our history is pretty, but I also understand that it has made us who we are, and is a fundamental part of our national identity.

I respect our electoral process, even when I dont agree with the outcome. I dont picket the victor, because I dont like him.

I respect our laws, revere our Constitution, and have the utmost respect for the division of powers.

I know every word to the Star Spangled banner and sing it proudly (and badly).

Michael Kinsley said it best, I believe:

"Criticism of the war surely is dispiriting to the soldiers who are engaged in it. If you’re killing and risking death in a miserable faraway desert, you ought to be able to believe that your sacrifice is in a worthy cause. But whose fault is it if that belief is hard to sustain? Is it the fault of people who note that the cause is not worthy? Or is it the fault of the people who sent American soldiers into this distant desert in an unworthy cause?"

I'm sorry that the fact that the majority of the American public now sees this war as wrong is hurting soldier morale, but I can't pretend to be okay with this war on that basis. Blame the man who started an unjust war, not the people who call attention to it.

[Heather]

Not all Americans see it as unjust. And those in the military certainly dont, either.

[Isley]

I am proud to be swedish. I love my country and what it stands for!

We have worked for all the things we have, like Maddy says they were fortunat to have oil and became a wealthy countrey because of it. We don't have that but we found other resources instead.

We keep the country clean and green by recycling: wedonate alot of money to countris less fortunat. We haven't been in a war for like 100 years.

There are bad things about sweden too I am sure... but what country doesn't have atleast some bad things about them.

Maddy people usually mix up sweden with switzerland :lol: and think we have polarbears walking on the streets hehehhe

I love your country too Liz! :lol:

They mix up Sweden with Switzerland? wow. HAha many think we have polarbears walking in our streets too! The only place with polarbears in Norway is on the island of Jan Mayen! :lol:

But I am grateful for what I've gotten, I am. And you may actually say I am proud of my country in some way, but that doesn't mean I'm proud of its people....

[*Liz*]

You like Sweden better then Norway?

The only place we have polarbears are at the zoo :lol:

[Kari]

same here...like Knut.

[Isley]

Awww Knut is soooo cute!!! I love that bear :lol:

[*Liz*]

yes Knut is ADORABLE!

[Ashlyn]

:lol: We've veered a bit offtopic, it seems.

Not all Americans see it as unjust. And those in the military certainly dont, either.

I understand that. I'm just saying that seeing it as unjust is not necessarily anti-patriotic.

[danyjoncew]

Honestly I didn't really read the whole thread (I'm doing 10830239480498 things at this very moment), I will later... I got kinda interested in Heather's motivation to open this thread, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating anyone's point (I probably am)... but being a patriot is not bad at all, as far as you can see your country is not perfect and you are able to point the weakest points of your country and feel sorry for it.

For once, I'm a Brazilian... I'm used to listen awful stuff. That Brazilian gilrs are sluts, that we are from the "third world" and have no significance on Earth, that Brazilians are retarded and all kind of things. Obviously a lot of that makes no sense at all, but I get where that comes from. I am not and will never be the one to hide and say we are perfect and just attack anyone else who says the opposite. Even here in Brazil people get me wrong. I am really harsh when I don't agree with what the government is doing, for example... and I'm really harsh when people blame it all on the government and when people act as if it would all be fixed if the opposition was in charge ... I'm always talking about how there's a lot to improve here... some people could think I'm not patriotic, but I really am. I am so patriotic that it really hurts, it really, really hurts seeing this country the way it is right now.

It goes the same way for Americans. You have to understand that - right now - the first thing people think of when they hear "USA" is the war... and a lot of us think this war is pathetic so then we'll probably look at you in a weird way if you start going on and on about how great it is to be an American. And even before that, sometimes Americans talk as if they were better than everyone else, putting themselves on the top of the world when the truth is nobody is better then anyone because of where they were born.

Anyway (as someone who is not American) we are usually fine with you guys, as long as we can see you are not just eating whatever your government says, that you have a solid opinion and you are not willing to let go of your own thoughts in order to defend this or that side of the story.

Wow, I just wrote a Bible and I typed that VERY fast, sorry for all my wrong English and loads of thoughts coming at once :lol:. I'll be back later and be more reasonable/read everythig.

[Heather]

You know, your post reminded me alot about a conversation I had with Luis recently. People need to realize, that people are people, no matter where they live, or what their beliefs are. My being an American doesnt make me evil anymore than you being a Brazilian does. We all have our flaws, and our virtues.

On a side note, do people really say things like that about people from Brazil? That is horrible!!!!

[Kari]

That was not off-topic, that was German patritotism Ashlyn,
and as you see Knut is one thing people know from Germany. I guess that would be different when it came to the Foreign Secretary ;)

[Ashlyn]

Oh god, now I feel quite horrible!!

It appears I'm a bit of an arrogant, ignorant American, even if I fight it at most times.

[Kari]

:lol: Just kidding, it was off topic.
But still, Knut is a cutie and highly political, considering the polar bears are dying due to global warming.

[BellaBlack]

Ohh now I know what you were all talking about! I read about Knut and the story really touched me :lol: your not the only one Ashlyn don't worry...I had no idea either until Kari's post^

[oclover24]

On Sunday, I heard that Daryl Worrley song "Have You Forgotten?" and man, I almost started sobbing!

[everwoodisfab]

I would consider myself quite patriotic as I feel that the country I live in has participated alot to who I am as a person :) Though that does not mean that I agree with every decision our government makes and everything that goes on here. To me patriotism is about trying to make your country as good as it can be and defending it's chance to get there. I do, however, feel that OTT patriotism can lead to problems and a distinct lack of unity in the world.

[oclover24]

I do, however, feel that OTT patriotism can lead to problems and a distinct lack of unity in the world.

Definitely. You have to be open to other ideas as well.

[Ashlyn]

Not to start an argument, but that Daryl Worrley song always rubbed me the wrong way.

I just hate that, and anything else simmilar to that that, like you guys said, takes us away from international unity. It just doesn't seem right that we have this "us and them" attitude. If we really want to fight terrorism, and work towards world peace, we have to stop seeing ourselves as "Americans" and "Iraqis" or anything else.

I guess that's why I'm somewhat anti-Patriotism.

[danyjoncew]

I just hate that, and anything else simmilar to that that, like you guys said, takes us away from international unity. It just doesn't seem right that we have this "us and them" attitude. If we really want to fight terrorism, and work towards world peace, we have to stop seeing ourselves as "Americans" and "Iraqis" or anything else.

Reminds me of a phrase (can't remember where I read it or who said it) and I quote:

"Patriotism is the belief that your country is better than any other simply because you were born there."

I don't like this idea. Being a Brazilian I obviously developed a special love for Brazil, it's natural. But here's where I understand that I can't consider us better than anyone or put my love for my country in front of my respect and love for planet Earth. I'm really really patriotic, I can cry singing the national anthem and all but I also know the borders are imaginary lines and the minute you buy them as something serious and even feel in the right to separate your world from everything that's outside your country... that's when I feel something really wrong is starting.

Proud Brazilian? Yes, but I rather be a world citizen, thank you very much.

[everwoodisfab]

Not to start an argument, but that Daryl Worrley song always rubbed me the wrong way.

I just hate that, and anything else simmilar to that that, like you guys said, takes us away from international unity. It just doesn't seem right that we have this "us and them" attitude. If we really want to fight terrorism, and work towards world peace, we have to stop seeing ourselves as "Americans" and "Iraqis" or anything else.

I guess that's why I'm somewhat anti-Patriotism.

I agree with you but I suppose it depends on what your idea of patriotism is I don't think patriotism neccassarily means the idea that your country is better than all the others and I dislike people that hold that view as it kind of breeds racism.

[oclover24]

I suppose you're right, Ashlyn, the song is sort of "us and them." But Americans do great things when we band together.

It's weird, I don't quite agree with the lyrics of it, but it's a patriotic song, so I like it.

[Jon]

Well I've been busy but I have to add to this three because come on now.....I'm one of the most Patriotic people around. When I'm at a sports event and they sing the Nationa Anthem, my cap is over my heart or my hand and I sing along. When I see the flag I always remember all those that gave up their lives to protect us. A line I loved from A Few Good Men was "we're here to fight for those that cannot fight for themselves." I don't think any line rung clearer in my mind than that one. I may have botched the quote, but thats pretty much what was said. I will always respect those that go out to war so I can sleep peacefully at night.

[danyjoncew]

I think it's weird how many people think of war when talking about patriotism. Well... then I can say I'm really proud that Brazil is against war to start with, makes me wanna kiss the flag.

[Heather]

Jon,

It was actually, "We were supposed to fight for people who couldnt fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willie." :lol: Yes, Im a quote freak.

But that line does ring true, and makes me think of my brother, Adam, and Kristin, because its what they are doing at this moment, and it is why they are doing it. Im proud to have people I love in the military.

Another line that always rang true for me was:
"Im out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight."

Its no coincidence that my brother became military bound after 9/11.

He loves this country as much as I do. And is risking his life to defend it. There's a certain honor in that.