Did John know? *spoiler alert if you aren't caught up to 5.3*

shaney · 09-30-2009, 12:22 PM

Okay, this is how my mind works….in other words constantly. No wonder I never sleep well!

I watched episodes 1-3 again last night and as demon-Bobby and Dean were talking about John something hit me. Did John know Sam was the vessel for Lucifer when he told Dean he’d have to save his brother or kill him? And my conclusion is: yes, he did.

We’ve always assumed John was talking about the demon blood in Sam and that he was afraid it would make Sam go darkside. But I think John knew exactly what Azazel had planned for Sam. I think it’s possible Sam wasn’t even a vessel until he had ingested the demon blood. Azazel wanted the best and that’s why he pitted them against each other in Cold Oak. Now, I’m sure he had his reasons for the children he picked. Lucifer told him to bring him a special child so I’m sure Azazel didn’t go around just picking random children. If we knew the back story of each child I’d say at least one of their parents had some special quality Azazel admired. Mary was a demon hunter. With his wicked sense of humor, Azazel would love to have the child of a hunter be the vessel for Lucifer.

John told Azazel he knew his plans for Sam and the other children when he made his deal with him during In My Time of Dying. Azazel’s plan was to free Lucifer. Although we didn’t know it at the time, we do now. So, if John said he knew his plans then I think he knew about the vessels. Which to me means, Azazel was gathering a crop of vessels….not putting all his eggs in one basket, so to speak. And he even said there were other generations, so he had back-ups in case nobody made the cut this time he would have some more vessels ready. He was determined to free his father.

Of course, this brings up more things to think about: 1) If John knew about Sam, did he know about Dean. I say no to that one. Dean made it clear in Lazarus Rising that no hunter believed in angels. Nobody had ever seen one, therefore in Dean’s mind they didn’t exist. If John had known about Dean, he would have known about angels and I think he would at least put something about them in his journal. He probably wouldn’t have told Dean, just as he didn’t tell him the whole story behind Sam but I think he would have dropped a few clues to their existence at least.

2) If Dean had never brought Sam back when he died in Cold Oak then he wouldn’t be facing the possibility of having to kill his brother (although he doesn’t actually know that yet). Honestly, I don’t think it’s going to come to that. Kripke has said family is one of the main elements of this show and I think he probably started out with the idea of these two brothers and one was going to have to save the other from some horrible fate and that is what SPN evolved into. I’ve heard him say that not everything in the mythology of the show has been mapped out from day one (but they’ve done an awesome job of tying everything together). So, my opinion is the thing that will bring the brothers back together will be their fight against allowing their bodies to be used as vessels for the angels. Not only is this story about family but it’s about free will and I think it would be such a cop out for Sam and Dean to allow the angels to take over. Dean has never believed in destiny and I don’t think he’s going to start now. But if they do let the angels take over, I have all kinds of theories about that. I’ll save that for another day and another post. This one is long enough….well, almost.

3) One final thing: If the demon blood is what made Sam a vessel (and that’s just my theory) then what made Dean a vessel? I think he was probably born that way. Passed along for generations until a vessel was needed. It was in the blood, as Castiel told Jimmy and his daughter it was in their blood. And maybe that was another reason Azazel picked Mary. If she was the vessel who passed on the trait, then how much more would Azazel love to screw with an angel’s chosen vessel? Because if Dean had been born ten years into John and Mary’s marriage instead of Sam, it would be him Azazel had fed demon blood to. And yeah, I know what you’re saying: If Dean was born a vessel then why don’t you think Sam was? Maybe he was. Maybe the demon blood just made him the vessel for Lucifer. It’s all just theories.

Okay, enough for now and if you actually read all this, well, bless you.

Wickeddoll · 09-30-2009, 02:02 PM

Guess I'm blessed. LOL

I think John did know about both boys. Why? Because he would most likely have told one of his hunter friends to kill Sam, if necessary, rather than put it on Dean to kill his own brother. I think there were things that John knew the boys would stumble upon in his journal, so he omitted anything that would skew them (or anyone who finds his journal) in the wrong direction. Didn't someone say John had the Sword Of Michael? Maybe they mean as in conceiving him? That's a stretch, but still. Had the boys known about angels, they may have tried to summon their help at the wrong time. Or worse, might have conjured up Urinal. (my name for him)

As for sleep, I prescribe a margarita on the rocks; not every night, but sometimes...

Seriously, ask your doctor about trazodone. Its technically an anti-depressant, but these days it's primary use is sleep. Works great, and isn't a narcotic, so you don't get hooked. When I was still in my 20s, I was diagnosed with narcolepsy, which not only makes you sleepy during the day, but you have insomnia as well, so I highly recommend it!

Natalie, taking off the nurse's cap

asketcher2 · 10-18-2009, 07:16 PM

Addressing the insomnia first, this is going to sound dumb, but "Deep Sleep Every Night" CD by Glenn Harrold helps me. The first time I listened to it, I giggled all the way through, but after I got used to the British "selling" voice (think CMOT Dibbler if you're a Pratchett fan) it really did put me to sleep.

I don't think John understood the full extent. I think he thought the demon blood was a bad thing.

But also, if he thought Sam needed killin' he'd ask Dean to do it, not some hunter. It's a family thing and he'd want the family to do it. Sure it's traumatic for Dean, but you do things for (or to) your family you wouldn't want anyone else to do.

What made Dean a vessel? I think being touched by both Heaven (angel) & Hell (demon) he was one of the very few (only one???) who has been touched by both.

09-30-2009, 12:22 PM	#1 (permalink)
shaney Extra Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Tennessee Posts: 139	Did John know? spoiler alert if you aren't caught up to 5.3 Okay, this is how my mind works….in other words constantly. No wonder I never sleep well! I watched episodes 1-3 again last night and as demon-Bobby and Dean were talking about John something hit me. Did John know Sam was the vessel for Lucifer when he told Dean he’d have to save his brother or kill him? And my conclusion is: yes, he did. We’ve always assumed John was talking about the demon blood in Sam and that he was afraid it would make Sam go darkside. But I think John knew exactly what Azazel had planned for Sam. I think it’s possible Sam wasn’t even a vessel until he had ingested the demon blood. Azazel wanted the best and that’s why he pitted them against each other in Cold Oak. Now, I’m sure he had his reasons for the children he picked. Lucifer told him to bring him a special child so I’m sure Azazel didn’t go around just picking random children. If we knew the back story of each child I’d say at least one of their parents had some special quality Azazel admired. Mary was a demon hunter. With his wicked sense of humor, Azazel would love to have the child of a hunter be the vessel for Lucifer. John told Azazel he knew his plans for Sam and the other children when he made his deal with him during In My Time of Dying. Azazel’s plan was to free Lucifer. Although we didn’t know it at the time, we do now. So, if John said he knew his plans then I think he knew about the vessels. Which to me means, Azazel was gathering a crop of vessels….not putting all his eggs in one basket, so to speak. And he even said there were other generations, so he had back-ups in case nobody made the cut this time he would have some more vessels ready. He was determined to free his father. Of course, this brings up more things to think about: 1) If John knew about Sam, did he know about Dean. I say no to that one. Dean made it clear in Lazarus Rising that no hunter believed in angels. Nobody had ever seen one, therefore in Dean’s mind they didn’t exist. If John had known about Dean, he would have known about angels and I think he would at least put something about them in his journal. He probably wouldn’t have told Dean, just as he didn’t tell him the whole story behind Sam but I think he would have dropped a few clues to their existence at least. 2) If Dean had never brought Sam back when he died in Cold Oak then he wouldn’t be facing the possibility of having to kill his brother (although he doesn’t actually know that yet). Honestly, I don’t think it’s going to come to that. Kripke has said family is one of the main elements of this show and I think he probably started out with the idea of these two brothers and one was going to have to save the other from some horrible fate and that is what SPN evolved into. I’ve heard him say that not everything in the mythology of the show has been mapped out from day one (but they’ve done an awesome job of tying everything together). So, my opinion is the thing that will bring the brothers back together will be their fight against allowing their bodies to be used as vessels for the angels. Not only is this story about family but it’s about free will and I think it would be such a cop out for Sam and Dean to allow the angels to take over. Dean has never believed in destiny and I don’t think he’s going to start now. But if they do let the angels take over, I have all kinds of theories about that. I’ll save that for another day and another post. This one is long enough….well, almost. 3) One final thing: If the demon blood is what made Sam a vessel (and that’s just my theory) then what made Dean a vessel? I think he was probably born that way. Passed along for generations until a vessel was needed. It was in the blood, as Castiel told Jimmy and his daughter it was in their blood. And maybe that was another reason Azazel picked Mary. If she was the vessel who passed on the trait, then how much more would Azazel love to screw with an angel’s chosen vessel? Because if Dean had been born ten years into John and Mary’s marriage instead of Sam, it would be him Azazel had fed demon blood to. And yeah, I know what you’re saying: If Dean was born a vessel then why don’t you think Sam was? Maybe he was. Maybe the demon blood just made him the vessel for Lucifer. It’s all just theories. Okay, enough for now and if you actually read all this, well, bless you.

09-30-2009, 02:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
Wickeddoll Extra Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fabulous Las Vegas Posts: 316	Guess I'm blessed. LOL I think John did know about both boys. Why? Because he would most likely have told one of his hunter friends to kill Sam, if necessary, rather than put it on Dean to kill his own brother. I think there were things that John knew the boys would stumble upon in his journal, so he omitted anything that would skew them (or anyone who finds his journal) in the wrong direction. Didn't someone say John had the Sword Of Michael? Maybe they mean as in conceiving him? That's a stretch, but still. Had the boys known about angels, they may have tried to summon their help at the wrong time. Or worse, might have conjured up Urinal. (my name for him) As for sleep, I prescribe a margarita on the rocks; not every night, but sometimes... Seriously, ask your doctor about trazodone. Its technically an anti-depressant, but these days it's primary use is sleep. Works great, and isn't a narcotic, so you don't get hooked. When I was still in my 20s, I was diagnosed with narcolepsy, which not only makes you sleepy during the day, but you have insomnia as well, so I highly recommend it! Natalie, taking off the nurse's cap __________________ "Wicked little doll, you have no soul" (David Byrne, 1997) Convention pix! Show nitpicking! More! http://www.supernaturalusa.net

10-18-2009, 07:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
asketcher2 Extra Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The other side of nowhere. . . which isn't as interesting as it sounds. Posts: 293	Addressing the insomnia first, this is going to sound dumb, but "Deep Sleep Every Night" CD by Glenn Harrold helps me. The first time I listened to it, I giggled all the way through, but after I got used to the British "selling" voice (think CMOT Dibbler if you're a Pratchett fan) it really did put me to sleep. I don't think John understood the full extent. I think he thought the demon blood was a bad thing. But also, if he thought Sam needed killin' he'd ask Dean to do it, not some hunter. It's a family thing and he'd want the family to do it. Sure it's traumatic for Dean, but you do things for (or to) your family you wouldn't want anyone else to do. What made Dean a vessel? I think being touched by both Heaven (angel) & Hell (demon) he was one of the very few (only one???) who has been touched by both.